Master Shapeshifter's usefullness

[Barney]

I keep seeing people throwing this in their tanking builds. Is it really worth the 5 extra points other than the standard 11 to get Furor, Naturalist, and Omen? It makes sense to me in a kitty or pvp build, but not so sure about a tanking build.


I just can't justify those extra 5 points for shapeshifting reduction (have yet to run out of mana in a fight where I am tanking) and a little extra damage in a tanking build... curious to see what other people think of these talents.

[elapadrinar]

i agree, but i could see its usefulness while grinding and pvp

[Nepenthes]

Maybe if we had dual-spec (so we could switch between specs in the field) there would be a place for it in one of the "pure" specs, but for now I think we're much better off putting those 5 points into the feral tree instead.



As far as talent issues go this one is easy to ignore though; it's not like feral druids have to waste points on this to get stuff higher in the resto tree.

[Mikki]

I keep seeing people throwing this in their tanking builds. Is it really worth the 5 extra points other than the standard 11 to get Furor, Naturalist, and Omen? It makes sense to me in a kitty or pvp build, but not so sure about a tanking build.


I just can't justify those extra 5 points for shapeshifting reduction (have yet to run out of mana in a fight where I am tanking) and a little extra damage in a tanking build... curious to see what other people think of these talents.

Where would the 5 points go then? I dont see apoint in Shredding attacks at the moment as we are holding aggro easily without it. its + 4% to all our damage attacks and that in AE situation especially is great.

ATM with a lvl 80 tank build its seem the best place to put the talents ATM. but lets wait and see what the changes bring around.

[Deleted]

Actually, 4% more damage is probably more like 6% more threat. King of the jungle (bear) increases your overall DPS by 2,5% (over the course of a minute) while gimping your armor. Here you have a steady 4% damage buff that doesn't put you back to level 60 armor

Shredding attacks, as said above, is hardly usefull for a bear tank. 2 rage off lacerate, when we have tons of rage is hardly a big deal, and Shredding is more for cats that likes to.. well, shred.

[Smartie]

I hate that you need to waste 3 talents points in Natural Shapeshifter to pick up Master Shapeshifter. Natural Shapeshifter is clearly a PVP talent! They really need to remove the link between these two!

My tanking build at 80 will be this: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...00000000000000.

I have points in King of Jungle simply because I have no where else better to put them... I do not have 5 points spare to go all the way to Master Shapeshifter.

I have not choosen Shredding Attacks as I simply don't seem to have any issue with rage at the moment.

You could do something like http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...00000000000000 if you really wanted Master Shapeshifter but then you miss Infected Wounds which is a good damage reduction talent.

Given how threat is at the moment I do not think the extra TPS from the 4% damage will be needed, remember you are tanking, your not trying to top the dps meters!

For my dps spec I will pick up Master Shapeshifter but I am not happy about the 3 wasted points in Natural Shapeshifter. http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...00000000000000

[Mikki]

I hate that you need to waste 3 talents points in Natural Shapeshifter to pick up Master Shapeshifter. Natural Shapeshifter is clearly a PVP talent! They really need to remove the link between these two!

My tanking build at 80 will be this: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...00000000000000.

I have points in King of Jungle simply because I have no where else better to put them... I do not have 5 points spare to go all the way to Master Shapeshifter.

I have not choosen Shredding Attacks as I simply don't seem to have any issue with rage at the moment.

You could do something like http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...00000000000000 if you really wanted Master Shapeshifter but then you miss Infected Wounds which is a good damage reduction talent.

Given how threat is at the moment I do not think the extra TPS from the 4% damage will be needed, remember you are tanking, your not trying to top the dps meters!

For my dps spec I will pick up Master Shapeshifter but I am not happy about the 3 wasted points in Natural Shapeshifter. http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...00000000000000

In your original tanking build why not drop KotJ, which in a Boss fight you are NEVER going to pop, and Primal Precision? Those 5 points will get you your extra points needed for master shapeshifter.
And I know Expertise is good, very good infact. The average mob has 5% chance to dodge/parry your attacks. This increases by 0.5% per level. So basically Bosses have a 6.5% chance to Dodge and Parry.
At level 80 you need 32.78 Expertise rating to reduce the chance to be dodged parried by 1% thats a total of 213.07 to be immune to Dodge/Parry.

Now I know it makes it sound like that 10 Expertise (Remember this is expertise points NOT Rating. So 1 point is = to approx 8.19 Expertise rating which is also equal to 0.25% chance to be dodged or Parried)

But my argument is becoming Parry/dodge immune is not important. Its only in early threat building that a couple of dodges in a row can throw your rotation and therefore threat build out. There is so much Expertise around at LvL80 that the 10 from Precision is not needed. Others will argu the other way and perhaps and the very top end of raiding it may change but the content is not hard at all atm and is not pushing tanks to there limits.

(and before anyone mentions yes i do know that more parries = more damage taken but hey. THe healers are hardly being pushed as well )

[Eilt]

While I disagree you should skip Primal precision, (considering you are probably not hit capped expertise is worth as much as +hit, if not more for a tank). Master shapeshifter is more of a tanking ability that a kitty DPS one. For DPS it adds a mere 4% to crit, while as a tank it increased your overall dmg by 4%. It is a great way to do extra dmg and I Would not remove it from any tank build.

[Mikki]

While I disagree you should skip Primal precision, (considering you are probably not hit capped expertise is worth as much as +hit, if not more for a tank). Master shapeshifter is more of a tanking ability that a kitty DPS one. For DPS it adds a mere 4% to crit, while as a tank it increased your overall dmg by 4%. It is a great way to do extra dmg and I Would not remove it from any tank build.

Yes but again beinh Hit capped is not every tanks priority, Crit Immune is and we know how much of a bitch that is to get......shit no its not we are Bears

Seriously. Tanking is about holding aggro. In terms or aggro 2 in MS is worth more than 2 in precision. (considering a half decent set at 80 will see you halfway to expertise cap). My Kitty is only 72 and i already got 70 or 80 expertise.

[Smartie]

In your original tanking build why not drop KotJ, which in a Boss fight you are NEVER going to pop, and Primal Precision? Those 5 points will get you your extra points needed for master shapeshifter.

Why would I not use bersek in a boss fight?

[Koumaru]

Not Berserk, Enrage. King of the Jungle is based on Enrage (for bear purposes, anyway).

[Eilt]

Yes but again beinh Hit capped is not every tanks priority, Crit Immune is and we know how much of a bitch that is to get......shit no its not we are Bears

Seriously. Tanking is about holding aggro. In terms or aggro 2 in MS is worth more than 2 in precision. (considering a half decent set at 80 will see you halfway to expertise cap). My Kitty is only 72 and i already got 70 or 80 expertise.

Being hit capped is not the highest priority which is why expertise is such a good stat (it reduces dodge and parry while in front of the target) compared to hit which only effects miss chance. Crit immuniity is handed to bears with the SotF talent which grants 6% chance to reduce crit. So we have no need for resil/def from gear anymore which means we can itemize for TPS now.

Tankins it about holding aggro, and if you are not hit capped expertise is actually a better stat than pure +hit. Once you reach either of the caps (hit or expertise) the other stat becomes less valuable though. So hit and expertise are relatively equal until one reaches the cap.

TL;DR don't skip primal precision, it is a great talent for bears.

[Barney]

I hate that you need to waste 3 talents points in Natural Shapeshifter to pick up Master Shapeshifter. Natural Shapeshifter is clearly a PVP talent! They really need to remove the link between these two!

My tanking build at 80 will be this: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...00000000000000.

That is exactly what I chose... I like to enrage while I pop zerk. kinda like a built in trinket. I know there are the drawbacks of the lowered armor, but I havent reached anything thats kicking the crap out of me yet. Good healers make it extremely trivial. KoTJ is worth it to me to have that extra burst in kitty form. It is 3 points whereas I would have to dump 5 to get master shapeshifter's benefit. There is no way I can justify dropping Expertise and KoTJ to get 4% more damage.

[Chrysanthemum]

The only time I found I could ever make space for Master Shapeshifter was in a pure Cat build. There are just that many extra talents in a pure Cat build that it's pretty easy to pick up.

I'm actually going to be going with a Bear/Cat spec at 80. I like being able to DPS and tank in a fight. Probly be something along the lines of this:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...00000000000000

[Ntrails]

Question.

What % of your DPS comes from maul?

If it is below 20% - then MS is better point for point than rend and tear.

If it is above, then I have no useful input

[Caedus]

gotta say its awesome so far. im tanking stuff at lvl 78 and its helping alot plus with us sharing rogue gear = no more int makes this talent VERRRRY useful

[jjam6217]

Its nice for the hybrid idea of druids, and also I cant live with builds without the shapeshifting mana reduction anyway, it saves so much mana for shifting to heal etc during solo play and pvp, even for a balance druid, and even more for ferals who are stuck without intel pieces now.

[deathsclaw]

So i took a look at this from a numbers view using the RAWR program. Loading all the top level gear in and looking at TPS/DPS with or without master shape shifter and its truly not really different. (This is assuming all end game gear/trinkets/Gems)

Both using the Highest TPS Rotation (Maul, Mangle, Lacerate, Faeri Fire).

With MS: 4053 TPS / 1713 DPS
Without MS : 4030 TPS / 1721 DPS (Put other 5 points into Mangle and KOJ)

Stats :
37679 HP
42685 Armor
43.69% Dodge

In summary i think it comes down to the minor increase in TPS relates to the consistent DPS generated over time versus the spike DPS boost from KOJ being popped in a boss fight. My personal preference is not to have KOJ because i would not have the need to pop enrage in a fight as i have more than enough rage and threat to spare. I don't want to over burden the healers.

[Chrysanthemum]

With MS: 4053 TPS / 1713 DPS
Without MS : 4030 TPS / 1721 DPS (Put other 5 points into Mangle and KOJ)

This.

In summary i think it comes down to the minor increase in TPS relates to the consistent DPS generated over time versus the spike DPS boost from KOJ being popped in a boss fight. My personal preference is not to have KOJ because i would not have the need to pop enrage in a fight as i have more than enough rage and threat to spare. I don't want to over burden the healers.

For me using enrage is rarely ever about the threat or the rage. I use it so that i feel a bit more like I'm contributing via dealing AND taking damage rather than just taking it.

I think it should also be noted that KotJ is essential for doing Cat DPS (for those times when you're not tanking obviously) and Imp. Mangle is essential for Mangle spam specs. (If you check the EJ forums you'll see that while Mangle spam doesn't have quite as much potential as a traditional rotation, it's much simpler and has more room for error.)

Imo, this proves that MS is just not worth picking up for a PvE tank or Cat spec. PvP is of course a different story.

[miekkagoon]

I see this little talent pretty useful.....simply increases all druid froms End of story