Arena 2v2: Ret or Holy?

[Snaggles]

With a MS Warrior what's the better partner? At what point will Healing > Burst?

I guess this poses the question for all DPS vs Healing players. Is Ret/MS Warrior a better combo than Holy/MS Warrior or does +SD gear and MP5 out-scale burst 2handers and JotW when you hit 80 and have decent gear?


Thanks in advance.

[deebee]

I say holy/ms. Ret lost quite a bit of burst imo, and you should be farming honor for those pvp pieces soon if you are going for arena.

[Crispybacon]

The early arena season will propably be dominated by pure DPS teams since the rng factor is too big with no arena gear.

Althugh (i hope?) that the new resi/high HP gear will make it more balanced.



So to answer your question, i think ret/MS warr will be better during launch but i doubt it's that good in a while since Holy/MS warr is an awesome combo for palas.

On the contrary, a holy pally is a double dps team's worst nightmare. If the first season is going to be littered with double dps teams (which I believe will happen), then a holy pally will be the perfect counter for most of those teams.

[yiptastic]

holy pally + MS warrior all the way.

holy pallies are buffed and they will get a few more later.

what holy pally have over other healers:
1) plate
2) fast casting big heals
3) bubble, Divine protection, Hand of Protection, Hand of Freedom
4) very very hard to run out of mana
5) can easily keep two targets up

A holy paladin that knows when to use divine plea is a massive strength on your side. He regains 25% of his total mana over 15 sec every minute. So he can easily afford Beacon of Light and holy light/shock spam at 40 yard range.

Your double dps opponent needs to unload massive burst + manage the CC on the holy pally to get that to work. Beacon of Light will definitely break their dps rotation, cos one big heal will immediately bring both of you back to full HP.

To stop Beacon of Light, your opponent will need to constantly work on dispel, which means a lost in GCD. If they try to outlast the pally's mana, that will be their doom's day.

[Pert]

I'm going to be doing Holy/MS in 2s, but I think until me and my partner stack up some S5 stuff it's going to be tough facing double-DPS teams. We're still pretty easy to lock out, and that plate armor REALLY isn't making much of a difference at this juncture against the burst people are throwing around.

[Snaggles]

holy pally + MS warrior all the way.

holy pallies are buffed and they will get a few more later.

what holy pally have over other healers:
1) plate
2) fast casting big heals
3) bubble, Divine protection, Hand of Protection, Hand of Freedom
4) very very hard to run out of mana
5) can easily keep two targets up

A holy paladin that knows when to use divine plea is a massive strength on your side. He regains 25% of his total mana over 15 sec every minute. So he can easily afford Beacon of Light and holy light/shock spam at 40 yard range.

Your double dps opponent needs to unload massive burst + manage the CC on the holy pally to get that to work. Beacon of Light will definitely break their dps rotation, cos one big heal will immediately bring both of you back to full HP.

To stop Beacon of Light, your opponent will need to constantly work on dispel, which means a lost in GCD. If they try to outlast the pally's mana, that will be their doom's day.

1) plate <---This has never helped us much before.

2) fast casting big heals <---from what I hear aren't we mostly using Holy Shock for on-the-move heals? If so, doesn't that throw mana efficiency out the window?

3) bubble, Divine protection, Hand of Protection, Hand of Freedom <---always has been our great trick cards, always will.

4) very very hard to run out of mana <---Almost every healer has a mana regen method. I don't know how Divine Plea makes us any more capable than anyone else. Using Holy Shock much again throws this out the window.

5) can easily keep two targets up <---up to a minute its easy. With sacred shield and beacon its cake...but recasting them mid-fight is pretty costly mana wise?


Thanks for everyone's points. I'm not pulling for Ret or Holy (I was Holy for almost a year and recently switched to Ret). I also remember our old MS/Holy combo prior to 3.0 which was horrid.

If the upgrades/nerfs to all the classes have made the Holy Pally more of an arena fighter (in 2v2) than it was prior, that would be great!


PS: I guess my main real question is if gear will scale accordingly. By this I mean will HPS >>> DPS. If you have a Ret on you pushing 2k+ dps will you stand there laughing like Pre 3.0 FoL'ing yourself indefinitely?

At the moment a Ret with a blue or epic 2hander (pick a level and 2hander) is a faceroll keyboard champ. I don't know if a Holy Pal is better to go deep enough ret for Repentance or to stick with Beacon and try not to get locked down. *shrug*

[ishy]

1) plate <---This has never helped us much before.

<snip>

This is where I stopped reading. Plate + shield is great vs physical dps.

[Adamson]

This is where I stopped reading. Plate + shield is great vs physical dps.

Maybe if you go into defensive stance.

[Elektrik]

(I was Holy for almost a year and recently switched to Ret).

Shocking.

[Snaggles]

This is where I stopped reading. Plate + shield is great vs physical dps.

Yep, its GREAT against physical dps which is about half of the classes?

Too bad Rogues have Poison, Enhancement Shams have Lavaburst and other spells, Rets have Judgment and seals, Warriors have Mortal Strike...which doesn't cut through armor but it basically cuts your benefit from it in half.

So in an optimistic perfect world where 50%ish classes are melee oriented, and where the melee class gets 50% of their dmg from attacks mitigated by armor...you just increase your defense by 10% of that small remainder. Hopefully you run into ALOT of Fury warriors who try to auto-attack you to death.

Congrats, that still sucks.

[Snaggles]

Shocking.

Yea. Go figure they gave us a bunch of gimmicks and Ret a huge pat on the back. Everyone should LEVEL as Ret and then figure out what to do from there.


PS: I did my time as Ret, Prot and Holy. I have done my reading but since Blizzard themselves admit that they are seeing "quite a few double dps teams and it may be out-scaling healing" I figured it would be a good question...

[Adamson]

Yep, its GREAT against physical dps which is about half of the classes?

Too bad Rogues have Poison, Enhancement Shams have Lavaburst and other spells, Rets have Judgment and seals, Warriors have Mortal Strike...which doesn't cut through armor but it basically cuts your benefit from it in half.

So in an optimistic perfect world where 50%ish classes are melee oriented, and where the melee class gets 50% of their dmg from attacks mitigated by armor...you just increase your defense by 10% of that small remainder. Hopefully you run into ALOT of Fury warriors who try to auto-attack you to death.

Congrats, that still sucks.

QFT

loldeepwounds

[yiptastic]

1) plate <---This has never helped us much before.

2) fast casting big heals <---from what I hear aren't we mostly using Holy Shock for on-the-move heals? If so, doesn't that throw mana efficiency out the window?

3) bubble, Divine protection, Hand of Protection, Hand of Freedom <---always has been our great trick cards, always will.

4) very very hard to run out of mana <---Almost every healer has a mana regen method. I don't know how Divine Plea makes us any more capable than anyone else. Using Holy Shock much again throws this out the window.

5) can easily keep two targets up <---up to a minute its easy. With sacred shield and beacon its cake...but recasting them mid-fight is pretty costly mana wise?


Thanks for everyone's points. I'm not pulling for Ret or Holy (I was Holy for almost a year and recently switched to Ret). I also remember our old MS/Holy combo prior to 3.0 which was horrid.

If the upgrades/nerfs to all the classes have made the Holy Pally more of an arena fighter (in 2v2) than it was prior, that would be great!


PS: I guess my main real question is if gear will scale accordingly. By this I mean will HPS >>> DPS. If you have a Ret on you pushing 2k+ dps will you stand there laughing like Pre 3.0 FoL'ing yourself indefinitely?

At the moment a Ret with a blue or epic 2hander (pick a level and 2hander) is a faceroll keyboard champ. I don't know if a Holy Pal is better to go deep enough ret for Repentance or to stick with Beacon and try not to get locked down. *shrug*

mana issue? divine plea.

1)holy shock is for on the run heal. If you see mages around and you know a big burst is coming, you open up with holy shock while running back, holy light cast at long range, you are free from CS and from magical nuke.

2)plate + shield never helps you? I hope you realize that in most fights, holy paladins are probably the one with the heaviest armor out there. tank grade armor mate. I can't count how many times my armor has saved me from stun locks and warrior dps. Melee are a lot stronger in wrath. plate makes a big difference.

4) doubting divine plea? well try it first. 2v2 shouldn't be a place where you see massive healing demands. (assuming you have well-geared buddy and have CC or some sort) In 2v2, burst isn't the determining factor, but how your mana lasts. If you have CC and use divine plea everytime it's up, it's hard for you to ever run oom.

divine plea gives us 25% of total mana back ever minute. If you gear with loads of int (which you should, and 2nd stat should be crit), you shouldn't have any problem. If you have kings, you gain 10% more.

[yiptastic]

Yep, its GREAT against physical dps which is about half of the classes?

Too bad Rogues have Poison, Enhancement Shams have Lavaburst and other spells, Rets have Judgment and seals, Warriors have Mortal Strike...which doesn't cut through armor but it basically cuts your benefit from it in half.

So in an optimistic perfect world where 50%ish classes are melee oriented, and where the melee class gets 50% of their dmg from attacks mitigated by armor...you just increase your defense by 10% of that small remainder. Hopefully you run into ALOT of Fury warriors who try to auto-attack you to death.

Congrats, that still sucks.

you can try healing in mail if you really think plate is useless. try that and see how you fair in 1800+ rating.

[Æika]

1. hpaly > other healer in arena *QQ*
2. fact
3. hpaly/mS
4. fact

just kidding...

no but for real... my realmpool is dominated by ONE hplay/mS in the last seasons... and just for i.e. at 3.0 me (full s4 ret + s4 resto druid - yeah for 3.0 you could run evrything + 2k [was 2,1xx with him]) run onto them and you know what? Even if it was 3.0 (and you can remember what it was like for a full s4 ret 3.0) I could NEVER bring him < 50%... evry other healer I just facerolled sooo easily... but if you guys realy think that
a. hpaly has issues - you have ~really~ NO idea
b. plate + shield... it IS NOT counting... you have ~really~ NO idea... *omg*

but to topic:

mS/ret should work, but hpaly will be much better, "perhaps" not at the start of s5 but a few weeks I see hpaly+melee dominating arena... :-x

for me I will switch to hpaly + rogue (played ret all seasons)

so be my guest and just remain QQing - oh and by the way I guess either 5x/10/5 or 49/0/22 or 51/0/20 should be the spec...

http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?topic=28070.15

bye

[Snaggles]

I know everyone is getting emotional here with Ret vs Holy (because it's what we Pallies do), but it shouldn't be that difficult for those who are currently doing Arena's at 80. Are Holy pallies (deep holy) easy to lock-down or does a Shock-Heal make it VERY difficult to kill either teammate?

If you say Holy is a very competitive healer amongst the others, great. If you think Ret has the dps and utility to do a bit better, great. I'm just curious if healer teams are competitive, specifically healer teams with little for mobility heals (Shock and lucky IoLight procs).

Seriously, not getting into a P!ssing match here, lol. Just asking questions.

As for the plate discussion, its just too stupid to keep alive. It is more expensive to fix than cloth so it MUST be better. :

[Keelie]

With a Warrior? Holy, hands down, no contest...etc...

But really there's no situation in which I'd rather play Ret/Arms over Holy/Arms.

[Snaggles]

With a Warrior? Holy, hands down, no contest...etc...

But really there's no situation in which I'd rather play Ret/Arms over Holy/Arms.

Thanks for the concise and honest feedback!