Sarth, 3 Drakes - Making Use of DK Tanks

[KaynDarksbane]

DK tanks have by far the best magic 'avoidance' capabilities of all tanks. This SHOULD be a well-known fact among raiding guilds, especially those who have cleared everything except the most challenging encounter currently in WotLK: Sarth with 3 Drakes.

I find it amazing that I have watched several of my IRL buddies fail repeatedly at this encounter not because their guildmates couldn't organize themselves, but because their tanks were getting hit for 50k+. Now, I am a super casual, but to me it's pretty obvious that the hands-down best tank for this fight would by an Unholy DK specced for Magic Mitigation.

Let's break it down:

Base DK Magic Mitigation, after next patch:

Frost Presence - 15% less magic damage
Icebound Fort - 20%+ less damage for 12 seconds, 1 minute CD
Anti-Magic Shell - 75% less magic damage for 6 seconds, 45 second CD

Unholy Tank:
Magic Suppression - 5% less magic damage
Anti-Magic Shell - 100% less magic damage for 6 seconds, 45 second CD
Anti-Magic Zone - 75% less magic damage for 30 seconds, up to 15-20K damage, 2 minute CD
Bone Shield - 20% less damage for next 3-4 direct damage attacks/spells, 1 minute CD

As you can see Unholy Tanks are unparalleled in the amount of magic damage they can mitigate. Since the tank is dying from burst and not consistent damage, you need burst mitigation, which is pretty much all that DKs have! That 50K breath will hit a DK tank for 42.5K, 27.625K if Icebound Fort is up (assuming 35% reduction). An Unholy DK would take 5% less than this, reducing it 26.25K. Not only that, but has Bone Shield for when Icebound Fort isn't up, reducing the damage to 34K. And those are both on a 1 minute CD. He also has 100% immunity for 6 seconds every 45 seconds if he can time it right, and the oh-shit! button of AMZ, which knocks off a huge chunk (15-20K) of that breath damage.

Why does no one else seem to see this? If you tank is getting insta-gibbed, GET AN UNHOLY TANK!

[Dhim]

Most definitely.

In the 10 Man I tank whelps, flames, and the First Dragon all at once while they're AOE'd down.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...lidan&n=Gurtur

We've only had one night of attempts at it but tomorrow we should get it, I imagine. We have the Heroic version on lock but I keep missing the raid.

[Marrakech]

the fight is impossible without at least 1 of the following: guardian spirit, pala 30% bubble from raid (not the tank), pain suppression, etc.

druids make good tanks because they can take the first and 3rd breaths with barkskin on a short cooldown, guardian spirit in between etc.

warriors are fine too w/ shield wall

pallys are fine too w/ divine 50% shield wall thingy


any tanking class can tank it, but not without the oshit spells i mentioned above.



EDIT: i should also mention dk's are amazing at tanking the fire elemental guys on sarth 3drakes because they can round them up and AMZ.

[Beefstyx]

You only show one side of the coin. While UH DK's have some tricks so do both blood and frost.

Blood:
Spell Deflection- chance equal to parry chance of taking 30% less spell damage
Will of the Necropolis- reduce cd of AMS by 15 sec and when below 35% health all damage taken reduced by 15% (after patch)

Frost:
Frost Aura- spell resistance by 80 (i think calc isnt working atm)
Acclimation- chance to increase spell resistance of the type used against you, stacks up to 3 times
Guild of Gorefiend- Increase IBF by 6 sec

Now I'm not saying which one is best, but they all have ways which make them pretty good at magic tanking.

[Nobz]

the fight is impossible without at least 1 of the following: guardian spirit, pala 30% bubble from raid (not the tank), pain suppression, etc.

druids make good tanks because they can take the first and 3rd breaths with barkskin on a short cooldown, guardian spirit in between etc.

warriors are fine too w/ shield wall

pallys are fine too w/ divine 50% shield wall thingy


any tanking class can tank it, but not without the oshit spells i mentioned above.



EDIT: i should also mention dk's are amazing at tanking the fire elemental guys on sarth 3drakes because they can round them up and AMZ.

Not necessarily, a DK tanked Sartharion all along and our drood MT came to replace him just after the third drake's death. We had a prot pala tanking the elementals but he never bothered to shield for the divine guardian thing
And ofc our DK was hybrid blood/unholy thing for bone shield.

[Admuntour]

I've actually main tanked Sartharion 25 with my DK on our first kill so I know its capabilities well, but your figure of 50k burst damage is absolutely wrong.
Sartharion's fire Breath does like 12k damage unmittigated and without the 100% fire debuff.
Even with the current mitigation a unholy tank cuts that to about 10k, which would make it 20k after the fire debuff, in addition because of the extra buff from the Shadron add inside the portal the breath that gives 50% more damage the breath can reach about 30k.
And a tank will have around 25k because of the other debuff.
If a DK tank would take 50k it would not be possible to survive it even with IBF, or it would be only by a low margin, the most I've taken with the 100% fire debuff and Shadron add up was 15k in IBF.

Back on topic, DKs yes have a lot of magic mitigation even now, not the most among classes though, 5% from frost presence, 5% from talents, 4% from rune of spellshattering, which is 2% less then warriors, however where DKs shine with on demand mitigation.
After the patch DKs will have the most magic mitigation 15% from frost presence, 5% from talents and 4% from the rune for a impressive 24%, and if you are feeling like taking it to the extreme then a meta gem for 2% less magic damage taken+ a paladin blessing will put you at an unparaleled 29%, which will more then make up for the nerfs to IBF and Bone shield.
DKs have definitely made a reputation for themselfs now.

[KaynDarksbane]

You only show one side of the coin.  While UH DK's have some tricks so do both blood and frost.  

Blood:
Spell Deflection- chance equal to parry chance of taking 30% less spell damage
Will of the Necropolis- reduce cd of AMS by 15 sec and when below 35% health all damage taken reduced by 15% (after patch)

Frost:
Frost Aura- spell resistance by 80 (i think calc isnt working atm)
Acclimation- chance to increase spell resistance of the type used against you, stacks up to 3 times
Guild of Gorefiend- Increase IBF by 6 sec

Now I'm not saying which one is best, but they all have ways which make them pretty good at magic tanking.

Absolutely all DKs are great at magic tanking, and on a fight where all damage is magic it probably won't matter which spec you are as long as you know what you're doing (Frost may win out on an all magic fight, though).

However, I'm viewing this specifically from a Sarth 3-Drakes perspective, which involves a huge burst of damage if both debuffs are up.  To mitigate huge burst, you need huge mitigation.  Unholy DKs have more forms of on-command magic mitigation that other DKs: this is a fact.

The resist from Frost is great for raid damage and continual small amounts of magic damage, but not that hot for a 50k slap-to-the-face.  Guile of Gorefiend is nice, but doesn't give you more tools to reduce damage: it just improves what you already have.  You still can't use IBF more than once per 1 minute.

Spell Deflection is overall not that impressive, but still a decent mitigation talent.  However, it is random; you cannot depend on it to mitigate the damage from Sarth's breath unless you have 100% parry chance.  Will of the Necropolis is also nice, and does increase the number of times you can use AMS significantly, though the second part of it is not near as useful for this fight.

Yes, any specced DK would likely be better that other tanks because they are CD tanks, but, for Sarth 3 drakes, Unholy still has the most tools to mitigate the burst.  I would say Unholy -> Blood -> Frost for taking that huge hit.

[Gheed1901]

Spell deflection is terribly bugged right now. Speccing into it will get you killed.

It prevents AMS or AMZ from absorbing damage. Few bug reports about this on the DK forums.

I tank 3 drake sartharion for my guild every week. One week, I decided to try a blood/unholy build for Spell Deflection & Veteran of the Third War. Through AMS, I was getting hit for 50k (Specced into Magic Suppression as well). Specced out of Spell Deflection, and everything was normal.

On paper it looks good, but it needs a fix first :-X

[Admuntour]

In my opinion in order from best to worst on magic mitigation is.
Unholy>Frost>Blood.

Unholy has pure 5% magic damage reduced 100% absorption from AMS, as well as AMZ and even Bone Shield.
Frost has Acclimation, which is very good once it stacks because its 150 more resistances on top of what you have, and believe me it helps.
Blood has a lower CD on AMS and Spell Deflection.

Why is Spell deflection so bad even if it doesn't bug? Its unreliable, even with blade barrier and an impossible amount of parry rating the most you could get is about 40%, when your life and the succes is on the line, avoiding a 30k hit its absolutely vital to have a reliable way to do it, 40% is no where near close to reliable.
Why is 5% less magic damage better then 150 resistances? Truth be told its not, however acclimation itself is not 100% reliable either, it first needs to stack, now that works great on mobs that hit you for little magic damage but very often (Hex Lord comes to mind), however Sartharion's breath has 10 seconds CD, and even after its ready he casts it when he "feels" like it, so it can be either every 10 seconds or it can be once per minute, I've had both happen, under these conditions acclimation is simply not reliable enough.

For this fight Unholy has it best hands down.
Oh and for heaven sake don't spec into Frost Aura, druids give 75 resistances from mark of the wild on talents, and in a 25 man there must be at least 1 druid that has it, 2 talent points for just 5 more resistances then another class can bring is a terrible investment, you can pick up something better for it, like Epidemic for example.

[maevtr]

I've actually main tanked Sartharion 25 with my DK on our first kill so I know its capabilities well, but your figure of 50k burst damage is absolutely wrong.
Sartharion's fire Breath does like 12k damage unmittigated and without the 100% fire debuff.
Even with the current mitigation a unholy tank cuts that to about 10k, which would make it 20k after the fire debuff, in addition because of the extra buff from the Shadron add inside the portal the breath that gives 50% more damage the breath can reach about 30k.
And a tank will have around 25k because of the other debuff.
If a DK tank would take 50k it would not be possible to survive it even with IBF, or it would be only by a low margin, the most I've taken with the 100% fire debuff and Shadron add up was 15k in IBF.

Back on topic, DKs yes have a lot of magic mitigation even now, not the most among classes though, 5% from frost presence, 5% from talents, 4% from rune of spellshattering, which is 2% less then warriors, however where DKs shine with on demand mitigation.
After the patch DKs will have the most magic mitigation 15% from frost presence, 5% from talents and 4% from the rune for a impressive 24%, and if you are feeling like taking it to the extreme then a meta gem for 2% less magic damage taken+ a paladin blessing will put you at an unparaleled 29%, which will more then make up for the nerfs to IBF and Bone shield.
DKs have definitely made a reputation for themselfs now.

no hes actually right about 50 K + hits on fire breath , there is absolutely no way to live through them unless tanks pop cooldowns on rotation.

[KaynDarksbane]

I've actually main tanked Sartharion 25 with my DK on our first kill so I know its capabilities well, but your figure of 50k burst damage is absolutely wrong.
Sartharion's fire Breath does like 12k damage unmittigated and without the 100% fire debuff.
Even with the current mitigation a unholy tank cuts that to about 10k, which would make it 20k after the fire debuff, in addition because of the extra buff from the Shadron add inside the portal the breath that gives 50% more damage the breath can reach about 30k.
And a tank will have around 25k because of the other debuff.
If a DK tank would take 50k it would not be possible to survive it even with IBF, or it would be only by a low margin, the most I've taken with the 100% fire debuff and Shadron add up was 15k in IBF.

Back on topic, DKs yes have a lot of magic mitigation even now, not the most among classes though, 5% from frost presence, 5% from talents, 4% from rune of spellshattering, which is 2% less then warriors, however where DKs shine with on demand mitigation.
After the patch DKs will have the most magic mitigation 15% from frost presence, 5% from talents and 4% from the rune for a impressive 24%, and if you are feeling like taking it to the extreme then a meta gem for 2% less magic damage taken+ a paladin blessing will put you at an unparaleled 29%, which will more then make up for the nerfs to IBF and Bone shield.
DKs have definitely made a reputation for themselfs now.

Okay, so, assuming Sarth's breath hits for 12k base and the tank has 25K HP due to the health debuff.

12k * 1.5 * 2 = 36k

A DK tank, as of next patch, would have 24% magic reduction (assuming specced for it) if the reductions are additive (I have no clue on this, but I doubt that they are). If the reductions are multiplicative, you get about 22.5% magic reduction.

36k * .775 = 27.9k

This number is MUCH more manageable. Basically, if you have IBF, Bone Shield, AMS or AMZ up, you will survive it quite handily.

Now, currently you can only get 5% from Frost Presence, 5% from talents, 4% from the rune.

Additive, that's 14%. Multiplicative, that's 13.4%.

36k * 0.866 = 31.2k

Now, with IBF up (50% here, as we are using current stats)

31.2 * 0.5 = 15.6k

With Bone Shield (40% currently)

31.2 * 0.6 = 18.7k

With AMZ, you would just subtract the total it absorbs (10000 + 2*AP) from the total done as long as the total is 1/3 bigger than the max absorbed. Assuming 3k AP

31.2 - 16k = 15.2k

With AMS, 0 with Magic Suppression.

As Unholy you have 4 on-use abilities that let you survive the breath currently. Two of these are getting nerfed in the next patch, but our base mitigation is getting buffed to compensate.

[KaynDarksbane]

no hes actually right about 50 K + hits on fire breath , there is absolutely no way to live through them unless tanks pop cooldowns on rotation.

Let's break down 50k breaths then:

Currently, with our 14% (13.4?) magic reduction:

50k * 0.86 = 43k

With IBF:    43 * 0.5 = 21.5, survivable
With Bone Shield: 43 * 0.6 = 25.8, maybe survivable
With AMZ: 43 - 16 = 27, maybe survivable
With AMS: 0, survivable

So, you have 2 definite survivable and 2 maybes.  This is possibly survivable WITH NO BUFFS FROM THE RAID.  As a good raid will be buffing you to keep you alive through this burst, an Unholy DK should be able to take this no problem.

[Admuntour]

I can say for sure I've never, ever seen a 50k hit by fire breath, most was like 31k with full magic reduction spec (not with spell deflection) and with fire aura.

I have no idea how he can hit for 50k either, it just doesn't make sense, 12k is what you get without any magic reduction talents or fire resistance, 24k is with the debuff from Shadron, 50% more is form Shadron's add inside the portal, thats 36k, unless your tanks have had some strange bug I can't see how it was possible.

[custos]

Considering that you can have Painsupresion, the holy end talent for priests, Hand of sacrefice, a DG speced pala, unholy DK's as dps, it realy dosnt matter what kind of tank it is, as long as it has good gear...

[Guran]

Flawed math is flawed:

Let's break it down:

Base DK Magic Mitigation, after next patch:

Frost Presence - 15% less magic damage
Icebound Fort - 20%+ less damage for 12 seconds, 1 minute CD
Anti-Magic Shell - 75% less magic damage for 6 seconds, 45 second CD

Unholy Tank:
Magic Suppression - 5% less magic damage
Anti-Magic Shell - 100% less magic damage for 6 seconds, 45 second CD
Anti-Magic Zone - 75% less magic damage for 30 seconds, up to 15-20K damage, 2 minute CD
Bone Shield - 20% less damage for next 3-4 direct damage attacks/spells, 1 minute CD

So far, so good, nothing to remark here, but ...

That 50K breath will hit a DK tank for 42.5K, 27.625K if Icebound Fort is up (assuming 35% reduction). An Unholy DK would take 5% less than this, reducing it 26.25K. Not only that, but has Bone Shield for when Icebound Fort isn't up, reducing the damage to 34K. ...

The problem here is that you keep adding those damage reduction up.

The way magic reduction works is they are added one after another, everytime assuming the final damage coming through after the previous calculation as 100%. An example:

15% damage reduction from Frost Presence means 85% of the original damage is coming through.
Of that 85%, another 5% is absorbed through Magic Suppression, so 95% * 85% = 80,75%
Icebound Fortitude or bone shield would be 80% * 80,75% = 64,6%
AMS/AMZ alone would give 25% * 80,75% = 20,1875%
Those 2 cooldowns together would be 25% * 80% * 80,75% = 16,15% procent of the original damage left or 83,85% reduction (yes, 75% + 20% + 5% + ... does NOT give immunity)

Excluding AMS/AMZ, the best reduction pre-resistance would be 64,6% or in the case of the 50k breath 32,3k damage. That's not burst, that's an instagib.

If you start with a 36k damage breath however, you would get 29k damage without icebound fortitude or bone shield, and adding resistances you will most likely see nothing above 25k next patch.

A warrior would have 15,4% reduction or 30.5k damage which would result in 26-27k max, for which he should be using Last Stand and Shield Wall ofcourse (and even shield block to reduce white swing damage while low on health)

[korruna]

Sartharion's Flame Breath can hit for way more than 50k on the 25-man.

Sartharion's Flame Breath = 10938 - 14062 damage.
Shadron (Power of Shadron), 100% modifier = 21860 - 28124 damage.
Acolyte of Shadron (Gift of Twilight), 50% modifier = 32790 - 42186 damage.
Acolyte of Vesperon (Twilight Torment), 75% modifier = 57383 - 73826 damage.

73826 damage *.84 (defensive stance, 16% less damage) = 62014 top end on the breath

On normal mode the breath's baseline is 8750-11250.

[KaynDarksbane]

Flawed math is flawed:So far, so good, nothing to remark here, but ...
The problem here is that you keep adding those damage reduction up.

The way magic reduction works is they are added one after another, everytime assuming the final damage coming through after the previous calculation as 100%. An example:

15% damage reduction from Frost Presence means 85% of the original damage is coming through.
Of that 85%, another 5% is absorbed through Magic Suppression, so 95% * 85% = 80,75%
Icebound Fortitude or bone shield would be 80% * 80,75% = 64,6%
AMS/AMZ alone would give 25% * 80,75% = 20,1875%
Those 2 cooldowns together would be 25% * 80% * 80,75% = 16,15% procent of the original damage left or 83,85% reduction (yes, 75% + 20% + 5% + ... does NOT give immunity)

Excluding AMS/AMZ, the best reduction pre-resistance would be 64,6% or in the case of the 50k breath 32,3k damage. That's not burst, that's an instagib.

If you start with a 36k damage breath however, you would get 29k damage without icebound fortitude or bone shield, and adding resistances you will most likely see nothing above 25k next patch.

A warrior would have 15,4% reduction or 30.5k damage which would result in 26-27k max, for which he should be using Last Stand and Shield Wall ofcourse (and even shield block to reduce white swing damage while low on health)

If you had read the entire thread, you would know that I was unsure whether they were additive or multiplicative; I was simply using numbers I had seen others use.  The math wasn't flawed, the information was.  Thank you for clearing that up, however.

Shield Wall and Last stand are also are significantly longer CDs than most DK tanking abilities.

Sartharion's Flame Breath can hit for way more than 50k on the 25-man.

Sartharion's Flame Breath = 10938 - 14062 damage.
Shadron (Power of Shadron), 100% modifier = 21860 - 28124 damage.
Acolyte of Shadron (Gift of Twilight), 50% modifier = 32790 - 42186 damage.
Acolyte of Vesperon (Twilight Torment), 75% modifier = 57383 - 73826 damage.

73826 damage *.84 (defensive stance, 16% less damage) = 62014 top end on the breath

On normal mode the breath's baseline is 8750-11250.

Okay, so lets use your low end and top end damages then. 58k and  74k.

Current base reduction: 5%, 5%, 4% = 13.36%

58k -> 50.25k
74k -> 64.11k

W/ IBF:
50k -> 25k, maybe survivable
65k -> 32.5k, instagib

W/ IBF and Bone Shield (note: Bone Shield is actually up for quite a while):
25k -> 15k, survivable
33k -> 19.8k, survivable

So, currently, w/ IBF and Bone Shield up, a DK can survive a fully debuffed hit.  That is once per minute.
If either of those abilities is down, AMZ can substitute as it is about 16k off of the final damage.  Also, AMS is complete mitigation once per minute.

So, an Unholy DK can survive at least two fully debuffed hits per minute w/o the help of anyone but healers healing him.  This is significantly more than other tanks.  Warriors only have Last Stand (5 min CD) and Shield Wall (4 min CD).  Paladins have DS (4 min CD).  Druids have Survival Instincts (3 min CD).

Now for the post-patch analysis:

Post-patch base reduction: 15%, 5%, 4% = 22.48%

58k -> 44.96k
74k -> 57.36k

W/ IBF (I'm not sure what the scaling is, assuming 35% at 540 Def):
45k -> 29.25k, instagib
58k -> 37.7k, instagib

W/ IBF and Bone Shield:
30k -> 24k, maybe survivable
38k -> 30.4k, instagib

So, the upcoming patch will definitely hurt us in this regard (but is a needed buff to base damage reduction), but we can still greatly reduce the damage we take with CDs.  Depending on how predictable and often the 50k breaths are, AMZ would make this easily survivable, and you still get an AMS every 45 seconds.  That works out to about 1.8 negations per minute.  Still WAY better than anyone else!

[Admuntour]

I didn't know if the magic resistances where either additive or multiplicative either, so sorry for miss informing people.

Though I'd like to add, if you the raid is doing what it should do, which is, going into the portals and killing the Acolyte, then most any tank should take is about 32-42k, which is easily survivable using current magic mitigation and CDs and should still be survivable but more on the edge post patch. Thats what I like about Sartharion almost all the killer damage is avoidable, tsunami, twilight fissure are avoidable if people are aware and move, the instagib breath can be avoided if melee are aware of portal up times and go in asap to kill the adds meaning you get only 1 not to severely buffed breath, which you can live trough using a CD.

Also a lot of people are ignoring blessing of sanctuary and/or grace as well as the meta gem, those can still add up to enough to make a difference.
By the way, does BoS stack with Grace? I mean I've had BoS on me and saw me getting Grace buff as well, but do their damage reducing effects stack?

[frankster]

By the way, does BoS stack with Grace? I mean I've had BoS on me and saw me getting Grace buff as well, but do their damage reducing effects stack?

As far as I know Vigilance overwrites BoS which suggests that the effects do not stack