3.0.9

[Rozwell]

when u combine 30 min seals with it the divine plea nerf it doesnt seem so bad. you just need to let other healers know to help on your target and i usually redo beacon after i hit plea anyways. it also wont affect dispels, sacred shield, etc. of course if your spamming the hateful strike tank on patchwerk it causes issues. i like to pop wings with plea as well to add back 20%. its not a game changer by any stretch.

[Firecrest]

The whole point of Divine Plea is to get mana back. If you cancel it prematurely you will get less mana back. And holy paladins have no other ways to generate mana back other than using seal of wisdom and running around and whacking things.

As such, with this change Divine Plea is absolute garbage in raids, especially boss fights, and with no Divine Plea up Holy will run out of mana a lot faster.

No. It just means that you will have to smarter about using it. And, yes, will have to work up a quick way to cancel it. I see you around these forums a lot and normally your input is pretty solid, but this kind of "woe is the nerf! It's completely unusable now!" attitude is generally something that comes from people who don't know how to play the class or rely heavily on whatever "OPness of the moment" the class has. Good Holy Pallies will simply understand that it takes a little bit more thought and effort now. Yes, you won't be able to mindlessly spam it on CD. Yes, you will have less mana. But, yes, you can still use Plea in raids. And, yes, you can still heal without its current incarnation.

Vortex inc on Malygos? Pop it. Everyone back to full after a Gluth Decimate? Pop it. Tank just took a Breath and you're now running from a Lava Wave on Sarth? Pop it and cancel it after a few seconds.

Canceling Plea is just fine. You say that the point of Plea is to return mana. But then go on to say that canceling it early nets you less mana as though canceling it early net you zero mana. Even 5 seconds of Plea is more than 0, right? So why would it be "garbage in raids"? Plea being up, even for less time, is still a powerful tool. You can't just pop it on CD anymore. Which is exactly what Blizz was going for.

Personally, I think 50% is a little rough. 40% or less would have been more to my liking. But I like this change. It's a lot better than many of the other changes that people thought would come to nerf our replenishment (something that actually really needed to be done). If you look back at prior beta versions of Plea (healing reduced by 100%), it's clear that it wasn't really meant to be a Holy Pally tool in the first place. It turned into one because Holy Pallies whined and moaned about it and Blizzard caved. Is it unfair that they're now going back and correcting their mistake? Not really.

Personally, I don't use it that often in combat anyhow. Once or twice on some of the harder or longer fights, but that's it. Rather than just hitting it when I notice my mana starting to get low, I'm going to actually have to think about it before the fight and plan the best time to use it. I'm also going to create a "/cancelaura /cast HL" macro specifically for dealing with "oh shit" moments while Plea is up.

[fendrix]

And El Oh El, who still uses Seal of Not-so-Righteous-ness? The glyph change now makes it even more worthless (but like i said, who still uses it for raiding or PvP)?

Factoring in Seals of the Pure, Judgments of the Pure, and this new Glyph of Righteousness, you can get a 50% boost in SoR's damage.

Why you would want to is another matter.

[Dæs]

If they are gunna add a deep holy talent that deals with Plea, they need to make one that doesn't reduce the healing penalty, but reduces the time that penalty is active.

So say instead of 50% healing and 25% max mana over 12secs, it would be 50% healing and 25% max mana over (10secs / 8secs) 2 ranks, each lowering it by 2secs.

That way, we get the regen faster, they still have the healing debuff, and we don't have to worry about the tank being gib'd during those extra 4secs.

[Ayugi]

The point of the change is to hurt holy paladins, so i really doubt they will put in deep holy talents to revert the nerf. ;s

[Aloysius]

Are people still just ignoring the prior blue post about 3.1 where they want mana regen to be more of an issue so that classes like holy pallies can't just ignore mp5 and still never run out of mana? God forbid they make players start thinking again (although the seal change does quite the opposite, lol; I wouldn't be surprised to see this turn into a slight dps increase for the broader ret base given that lesser players will break fewer cycles every 2 mins...).

Interesting buff in PvP although it was easy enough to talent into seals being un-dispellable. In fact, if you consider the old strat by taking 2/3 in sanc seals, this is somewhat negated by the fact that the seal no longer presents an additional buff to dispel since it won't be targeted by purge.

[Dæs]

holy pallies can't just ignore mp5 and still never run out of mana? God forbid they make players start thinking again.

Mp5 for holy pallies always has and always will be useless for the most part, if it comes on gear or we have an extra pally for BoW... fine. The fact that they are nerfing Spirit regen while out of the 5 secs rule and not the TOTAL regen of plea means that our 'Regen" won't be going down, just our Hps.

We will never be able to use the 5 sec rule, and since replenisment will still work off max mana, stacking int will give us all the "mp5" we need.

Also, you must not be playing the same game i am, ever since BC and "arenas" blizz is making it so less and less people need to think.

[Palatinus]

No. It just means that you will have to smarter about using it. And, yes, will have to work up a quick way to cancel it. I see you around these forums a lot and normally your input is pretty solid, but this kind of "woe is the nerf! It's completely unusable now!" attitude is generally something that comes from people who don't know how to play the class or rely heavily on whatever "OPness of the moment" the class has. Good Holy Pallies will simply understand that it takes a little bit more thought and effort now. Yes, you won't be able to mindlessly spam it on CD. Yes, you will have less mana. But, yes, you can still use Plea in raids. And, yes, you can still heal without its current incarnation.

Vortex inc on Malygos? Pop it. Everyone back to full after a Gluth Decimate? Pop it. Tank just took a Breath and you're now running from a Lava Wave on Sarth? Pop it and cancel it after a few seconds.

Canceling Plea is just fine. You say that the point of Plea is to return mana. But then go on to say that canceling it early nets you less mana as though canceling it early net you zero mana. Even 5 seconds of Plea is more than 0, right? So why would it be "garbage in raids"? Plea being up, even for less time, is still a powerful tool. You can't just pop it on CD anymore. Which is exactly what Blizz was going for.

Personally, I think 50% is a little rough. 40% or less would have been more to my liking. But I like this change. It's a lot better than many of the other changes that people thought would come to nerf our replenishment (something that actually really needed to be done). If you look back at prior beta versions of Plea (healing reduced by 100%), it's clear that it wasn't really meant to be a Holy Pally tool in the first place. It turned into one because Holy Pallies whined and moaned about it and Blizzard caved. Is it unfair that they're now going back and correcting their mistake? Not really.

Personally, I don't use it that often in combat anyhow. Once or twice on some of the harder or longer fights, but that's it. Rather than just hitting it when I notice my mana starting to get low, I'm going to actually have to think about it before the fight and plan the best time to use it. I'm also going to create a "/cancelaura /cast HL" macro specifically for dealing with "oh shit" moments while Plea is up.

For the most part, i already did that in pve (using it at particular points on boss fights), the only boss i'd like to try with it is patch, since there isn't a time you can stop spamming, but then some of it could be overheal anyway...guess ill find out on wednessday.

The big problem for me, is not the pve side of things, but PvP. It being undispellable is a huge bonus, but what about mass dispel? (most priests screamed at the idea of spending 1000+mana on bubble, but they do it anyway so...)
And secondly, i have a worry about playing setups that have MS/Wound e.t.c, as this will lead to your heals doing 75% less, at least you can still heal, but HL already did only around 8-9k crits with 50% reduction...what will it be like with 75% :S Of course, you can also unclick it when someone gets low, and since the nerfs are coming in against rogues and arcane mages..being afraid of sudden huge bursts will be reduced i suppose.

In all, i think the divine plea change was ok, from what people were saying i was expecting much worse, at least this is adaptable, i just hope they don't nerf holy further due to pvp, and have it end up like TBC again.

[Grimbold]

I just wanted one thing

As a ret, id like to have access to talent "Judgements of the Pure" which is deep in the holy tree. That would be kinda awesome, maybe OP even :<

[Deleted]

No. It just means that you will have to smarter about using it. And, yes, will have to work up a quick way to cancel it. I see you around these forums a lot and normally your input is pretty solid, but this kind of "woe is the nerf! It's completely unusable now!" attitude is generally something that comes from people who don't know how to play the class or rely heavily on whatever "OPness of the moment" the class has. Good Holy Pallies will simply understand that it takes a little bit more thought and effort now. Yes, you won't be able to mindlessly spam it on CD. Yes, you will have less mana. But, yes, you can still use Plea in raids. And, yes, you can still heal without its current incarnation.

Atleast new paladins who have just started gearing up and are doing heroics this change will mean they'll have to drink a lot more often. In raids there are of course other people who might supply you with some mana, like ret paladins with their JotW. But if an Oh Shit happens and you are running low on mana the 50% hit to healing is quite a lot.

But there also an other thing I was thinking about..Divine Plea scales with gear in the sense that the more mana you have the more mana you also get during those 12 seconds. Blessing of Wisdom however does not scale. The other healing classes, like f.ex. holy priests get more mp5 and spellpower the more spirit they have so their mana regeneration abilities scale with their gear. Holy paladins get the most benefit out of intellect, but it does nothing for mana regeneration..We can gem for mp5, but then we lose a portion of mana pool and spellpower. So I'm kind of afraid how things will turn out in the future raids. We might turn out to be the class/spec that keeps running out of mana in raids, or if you gear for mp5 then you'll perhaps end up having the lowest healing capabilities.

[DaveTheHunter]

Since when has a holy pally, or ANY healer for that matter had issues with going OOM in this expansion? The whole point of this change is to make it where it IS possible to go OOM and not be able to spam Holy Light nonstop for half an hour.

[Firecrest]

Mp5 for holy pallies always has and always will be useless for the most part

False. MP5 was an important stat in BC. It did not get any worse in Wrath. What happened was that Int became just so much better. And this based largely on the OPness of Plea.

How you can say that this stat will always be useless is beyond me. Do you have some insight into the next patches and next expansions that the rest of us do not?

The fact that they are nerfing Spirit regen while out of the 5 secs rule and not the TOTAL regen of plea means that our 'Regen" won't be going down, just our Hps.

WTF are you even trying to say here. Seriously? What does Spirit Regen have to do with anything at all? Translate this into English please.

[shockpally]

Since when has a holy pally, or ANY healer for that matter had issues with going OOM in this expansion? The whole point of this change is to make it where it IS possible to go OOM and not be able to spam Holy Light nonstop for half an hour.

I am still gearing up. with 15k mana and AE damage in heroics i certainly am going very close to OOM. Without Divine Plea and Mana pots it would be very difficult to get these things done.

I hate having to use DP. What are you supposed to do? The gear is better than it has ever been and with the current mana pools you cant stack enough MP5 to make a difference.

They pretty much forced Holy paladin in pre-raid gear into HAVING to use DP.

Now they are nerfing the healing penalty even further which means if you have to use it you are going to have to be hitting HL while using it.

It's a vicious circle.

[Firecrest]

Atleast new paladins who have just started gearing up and are doing heroics this change will mean they'll have to drink a lot more often. In raids there are of course other people who might supply you with some mana, like ret paladins with their JotW. But if an Oh Shit happens and you are running low on mana the 50% hit to healing is quite a lot.

"You'll have to drink more" and "you'll actually have to plan your Plea instead of mindlessly smashing on CD" are not really valid arguments in my book. The first is an inconvenience at best and probably not even true as OoC Plea has not changed at all. The second is actually the whole point of the nerf and therefore not really a point against it, but rather a strong reason for it.

But there also an other thing I was thinking about..Divine Plea scales with gear in the sense that the more mana you have the more mana you also get during those 12 seconds. Blessing of Wisdom however does not scale. The other healing classes, like f.ex. holy priests get more mp5 and spellpower the more spirit they have so their mana regeneration abilities scale with their gear. Holy paladins get the most benefit out of intellect, but it does nothing for mana regeneration..We can gem for mp5, but then we lose a portion of mana pool and spellpower. So I'm kind of afraid how things will turn out in the future raids. We might turn out to be the class/spec that keeps running out of mana in raids, or if you gear for mp5 then you'll perhaps end up having the lowest healing capabilities.

You're forgetting that standard replenishment scales with Int. And Plea still scales with Int as well. You will just be using it less. Int will remain the best Pally stat for now, I don't see that changing. Crit and SP may edge up closer to close the gap between them and Int, but this is a good thing as well. MP5 will also become a bit better but still will remain our least beneficial stat.

Don't think of it as us falling behind other healing classes. Think of it as us being pulled back to be more in line with them. The truth is that our regen was absurd. I expect to now end more fights closer to 0% mana as opposed to 70% or more. I expect to have to pop mana pots on long fights and actually think about when I'm using my abilities. These are things that the other classes have to deal with as well, and I don't think it's unfair for me to do the same.

[Lumidar]

Now if only they can make Righteous Fury not be dispelled >_>

[yiptastic]

some nice pvp buffs

it's more than just nice. you can no longer stop a pally from regaining mana back or than killing him.

[yiptastic]

Just you wait. With enough whining, it's only a matter of time before a deep Holy talent reduces the healing penalty of Divine Plea back to 20%

They already changed it from 50% to 20% once due to complaints.

it won't happen and it doesn't have to. A spell that gives you 25% mana back every minute is too good without healing penalties.

Not sure if you realize this though. WIth glyphed SoL, you really only suffer 45% healing penalty, with AW on, that cuts it down to 15%. A crit heal negates the penalty and gives you a regular heal + 35% bonus. If you do not have AW on, you have the 5% bonus from glyphed SoL.

In raids, you can nearly hit 50% crit. so, almost every other heal will give you a regular heal when using divine plea. That's really not that bad!

grab trinkets that boost your SP on use (tie it with DP via macro)

gear choices still holds: int>crit>sp.

[maevtr]

The whole point of Divine Plea is to get mana back. If you cancel it prematurely you will get less mana back. And holy paladins have no other ways to generate mana back other than using seal of wisdom and running around and whacking things.

As such, with this change Divine Plea is absolute garbage in raids, especially boss fights, and with no Divine Plea up Holy will run out of mana a lot faster.

well the whole point of devine plea is not for the use of holy pallys, as stated by the developers. It was meant to be used by prot/ret pallys in order to not go oom (which would be the case if i didnt have it). Thus why there is a heafty penalty for holy pallys.

[bals]

In raids, you can nearly hit 50% crit. so, almost every other heal will give you a regular heal when using divine plea.

wtb your 2x spell crit heals

[Dæs]

False. MP5 was an important stat in BC. It did not get any worse in Wrath. What happened was that Int became just so much better. And this based largely on the OPness of Plea.

How you can say that this stat will always be useless is beyond me. Do you have some insight into the next patches and next expansions that the rest of us do not?

WTF are you even trying to say here. Seriously? What does Spirit Regen have to do with anything at all? Translate this into English please.
[/quote]

Right because nothing has changed since BC =\

I'm talking about how currently Mp5 is not worth it for Holy, with both Plea and Replenishment we need little to no mp5, Like i said, if you get it with gear or BoW, fine, but think what you would say to a holy pally if they stacked all Mp5, wow you have 17k mana and 250 mp5 while casting unbuffed, enjoy being oom.

Whoosh... i was talking about how everyone is bitching that this "nerf" is going to change our mana regen, its not, its going to lower our Hps while Plea is active. I was saying that blizzards upcoming changes to "mana regen' is going to change spirit and its affect while not casting, a.k.a. the 5 sec rule, and how this will not change pally regen, as we are never in the 5 sec rule.... you speaka english?