Quote for truth. A statement from wow-eu forums.

[Zondana]

Rogues are annoying; thus they get more QQ about them than many of the actually overpowered classes. People lack perspective outside there own class, OP or not, and lack perspective about which is more dangerous: A class that can lock you out for 10 seconds doing 500 DPS, but die in 5, or a class that can lock you out for 5, do 1000 DPS, and survive for 30.
The class that can lock you out for 10 seconds becomes more annoying, because you aren''t in control, and that's incredibly frustrating.
_________________________________________________
This was posted by a DK named Faerfail on the WoW-Europe/rogue forums. This is the message i have been trying to get out to people for a long time. But people don't seem to want to hear it. Anyways, i did want to forward this post to maybe relieve some of the grown-in Rogue hate that so many people have.

[talitu]

all very well and good except for the glaring flaws.

1. rogues dont keep you locked for just 10 seconds.
2. they dont die in 5 seconds. even if you do manage to beat one they just burn one of there get out free cards and sprint off into the distance
3. the poison procs off thier off hands might do 500 dps but its hardly the full force of the class is it now.


but he is right it is the cheesy gayness factor of the class that nets it so much hate, they are in the same league as bubble rets in that regard. but this i think is fine , because 99% of the class are fotm re rollers from s2-4 that picked the class for exactly those reasons.

[spec]

brb dying in kidney shot cos trinket on CD.

[RoseRed]

Well as a plate wearer I don't see any issues about Rogues, I do believe they need the ability to lock you out for sometime to have any chance, but at the same as a cloth user the 500 dps changes to a 10 sec lock and 2k dps which honestly just becomes a joke and pretty unfair against the cloth users. So it's a fine line and one that can be called OP to some and well..important to others, which honestly give Blizzard a tough job to balance (this is more then just the paper rock scissors theory) it's more like get off your PC from the second cheap shot is applied or you'll end up having to wipe the spit off your screen a few seconds later

[Zondana]

i KNOW that the DPS part of the post was purely fictional and probably way off. That's not the point of the post.

The thing is that when you meet a Rogue + mage team, and you get stunned and killed in less than 10 sek. Who do you think is the one that was killing you, and who do you think was the one stunning you. Stuns are strong. But ATM that's all we have.

I have been taken from 100% to 20% by a mage in an arena just in the duration of Deep Freeze. Or by a paladin in the duration of a hammer of justice. We probably all have. But the fact that the rogue can keep you down for a longer time makes us SEEM like we are OP.

People see a rogue in a 2v2 team stunning them and think: "Oh crap! a Rogue is killing me...-_-" since it's the rogues stun that keeps them down. They will most probably ignore the fact that there was a mage / warlock / warrior / druid / hunter / pally / dk there to. And that they was nukeing you from the second the stun started. The ROGUE will get the blame.

[Legsarelost]

i KNOW that the DPS part of the post was purely fictional and probably way off. That's not the point of the post.

The thing is that when you meet a Rogue + mage team, and you get stunned and killed in less than 10 sek. Who do you think is the one that was killing you, and who do you think was the one stunning you. Stuns are strong. But ATM that's all we have.

I have been taken from 100% to 20% by a mage in an arena just in the duration of Deep Freeze. Or by a paladin in the duration of a hammer of justice. We probably all have. But the fact that the rogue can keep you down for a longer time makes us SEEM like we are OP.

People see a rogue in a 2v2 team stunning them and think: "Oh crap! a Rogue is killing me...-_-" since it's the rogues stun that keeps them down. They will most probably ignore the fact that there was a mage / warlock / warrior / druid / hunter / pally / dk there to. And that they was nukeing you from the second the stun started. The ROGUE will get the blame.

You make me fucking LOL like a goddamn phantom.

"Stuns are all we have" How about the insane amount of burst damage and combo point generation with Mutilate? How about the 7.6k Evis I was hit with in a 2v2 with 718 resil (20% damage from crit reduction) and 20% armor. 40% damage reduction from crits, yet I still get hit for nearly 8k. There is pretty much no way to get away from a rogue. CP has no DR, even if I can get away to bandage, Wound Poison takes away 50% of that.

And in a Mage/Rogue team, the mage isn't doing all the damage, because we (mages) don't even have time to get a cast off before the guy falls over dead.

How about Dismantle? You know that thing that makes fighting Warriors/DK's/Pallies/Rogues a joke. Trainable at level 30, makes the target sit there sticking his thumb up his ass.

How about Sap/Blind, the enemy's friend just sits there bufftuckin themselves with a rusty railroad spike for atleast 8 seconds. Seeing as you aren't even 80 on that totally awesome rogue, I doubt you realize that 8 seconds is long enough for your partner to fall to the ground and twitch like a epileptic being attacked by strobe light.

GG Zondana, you are truely, the biggest fail in all of Azeroth.

[shokchief]

honestly this has been a problem since the start the fact that we ca lock down people for 10 secs tottaly and yet CC for another 10 secs does Net a huge amount of anger on the class but people forget all the time that 5 combos are waisted on kideny shot, its not like we can burst some one down unless we actually had 100 E when we did the kidneyshot

but people just cant notice and admit that Hunter atm are tottaly OP the fact is that explsoive shot does to much DMG and reason beeing its fire dmg, paladins had divine strom as holy but it did to much dmg and now its the same problem with hunters, rogues have had ages a similar ability called envenom but thanks to the way it was implanted its only used mostly in PvE , something similar should be done to explosive shot its completly OP it has a 50% uptime 3 second duritation and a 6 CD.

same applies to DK's the endless CC from chains of ice and the 6-8k SS/oblits is just way over top.
admitedly i got full valorius on my rogue and gotten a few 10k oblits on me ,but on my DK that in quest blues at 80 is doing nearly 5k SS and i got half of the AP of a epic DK. atleast my paladin does take the beatin alot better thanks full plate but its not easy most of the time i win only becasou i was preprad to blow a CD or i outlasted ice bound fortitude to smack a stun on him. but survival hunters i have not beaten yet on my pala or DK only on my rogues thanks to some luck (but even then i did die after from a dot )

[shokchief]

You make me fucking LOL like a goddamn phantom.

"Stuns are all we have" How about the insane amount of burst damage and combo point generation with Mutilate? How about the 7.6k Evis I was hit with in a 2v2 with 718 resil (20% damage from crit reduction) and 20% armor. 40% damage reduction from crits, yet I still get hit for nearly 8k. There is pretty much no way to get away from a rogue. CP has no DR, even if I can get away to bandage, Wound Poison takes away 50% of that.

And in a Mage/Rogue team, the mage isn't doing all the damage, because we (mages) don't even have time to get a cast off before the guy falls over dead.

How about Dismantle? You know that thing that makes fighting Warriors/DK's/Pallies/Rogues a joke. Trainable at level 30, makes the target sit there sticking his thumb up his ass.

How about Sap/Blind, the enemy's friend just sits there bufftuckin themselves with a rusty railroad spike for atleast 8 seconds. Seeing as you aren't even 80 on that totally awesome rogue, I doubt you realize that 8 seconds is long enough for your partner to fall to the ground and twitch like a epileptic being attacked by strobe light.

GG Zondana, you are truely, the biggest fail in all of Azeroth.

and you sir a fool

mutilate on paper has a 6 second CD becasou it uses 60 energy
arcane barrage has a 3 second CD meaning you can use it 50%
not to mention the nice 30 range stun you have in the frost or slow in the case of arcane

and its been disscused ages that if you PvP you are not meant to gem for pure DPS but more survival meaning
get a CHAIN you fool. not to mention if you are loosing as a ret or DK without a chain L2P. warriors will need it admitedly it hinders them alot

[diGhtkuz]

The reason why I hate rogues so much compare to other classes (and this is coming from a feral druid who in 1v1 has no problem at all with rogues) is that they have so goddamn many abilities that allows them to escape death if they go low on health.

Blind, vanish, sprint etc...

Almost the same case with mages.

[Surfd]

and you sir a fool

mutilate on paper has a 6 second CD becasou it uses 60 energy

LOL WHAT? On paper, a lot of abilities are borderline underpowered, untill you factor in talent / glyph synergies, then they just go right into Overpowered.

I don't play a rogue as a main. I have a rogue alt in the low 40's range. However, it took me exactly 1 minute with the talent calculator to see that this has got to be the dumbest thing i have ever seen anyone post.

To get mutilate, you need Overkill. Overkill reduces the energy cost of all abilities used while in stealth and immediately after exiting stealth for 6 seconds by 10.

Also, any mutilate rogue is likely to have vigor. increases their max energy by 10.
A quick look at glyphs indicates that:
- there is a glyph that increases the effect of Vigor by an additional 10.
- there is a glyph that reduces the energy cost of Mutilate by 5

So now, you have a rogue with 120 energy, who jumps you with mutilates that cost 45 energy for the first 6 seconds he comes out of stealth.

Chances are, they also have Seal Fate and Relentless strikes.

120 total energy, 45 energy cost Mutilates which grant 3 CP on a crit. You do the math.

2 mutilates
a 95% chance 5 pt (Thanks to Seal Fate) Eviscerate or Kidney Shot, which btw, thanks to Relentless strikes and Overkill actually costs nothing.
followed by another mutilate or two?
all in 4 or 5 global cooldowns practically as fast as you can spam them?

Thats probably enough damage to kill most unsuspecting cloth and leather classes before they even have a chance to land back on their chair after the shock of having a rogue jump them out of nowhere.

Nahhh, couldnt POSSIBLY be much burst there.

Oh, whats that, I wasnt opening with a stun? Ok:

50 CS (2cp)
45 Mutilate (3 cp crit)
5pt Evisc (free, Overkill, Relentless strikes)
45 Mutilate (2 cp crit)
and then wait a few secs for more energy, but not like it matters, cause they are still stunned for at least 1 or two more sec anyway....

[Jerazznor]

Rogues are annoying; thus they get more QQ about them than many of the actually overpowered classes. People lack perspective outside there own class, OP or not, and lack perspective about which is more dangerous: A class that can lock you out for 10 seconds doing 500 DPS, but die in 5, or a class that can lock you out for 5, do 1000 DPS, and survive for 30.
The class that can lock you out for 10 seconds becomes more annoying, because you aren''t in control, and that's incredibly frustrating.
_________________________________________________
This was posted by a DK named Faerfail on the WoW-Europe/rogue forums. This is the message i have been trying to get out to people for a long time. But people don't seem to want to hear it. Anyways, i did want to forward this post to maybe relieve some of the grown-in Rogue hate that so many people have.

Its the same problem that people have with ret pallies. They are like "ZOMG I died in an HoJ nerf". But what they don't realize is that outside that HoJ you will NEVER DIE (assuming you aren't drooling-from-the-mouth retarded). If people want to stop dying in HoJs then they are going to have to start dying while interrupted or silenced, which would be the replacement for a shorter HoJ.

I feel for rogues but at the same time I think there is some legitimate concern on the other side. Nobody likes going CS>KS>Gouge>Blind>Sap>CS>KS (obviously one of those would be trinketed but you get the point).

For me, hunters have that same type of feeling currently. Its like they have the entire fucking arena floor covered in frost traps and then whenever their healer wants to drink its Pin>Freezing Trap>Wyvern>Scatter and then you are slowed as you try to run there. It drives me crazy when I immediately recognize that the healer is going to drink, yet am unable to do anything about it for like 20 seconds while he drinks to full.



Basically, rogues have too many control mechanisms to go along with very powerful defensive CDs. IMO taking away prep is the first step to balancing because rogues will either be OP or UP depending on how they are tuned if they can do double evasion and such.

[Zondana]

You make me fucking LOL like a goddamn phantom.

"Stuns are all we have" How about the insane amount of burst damage and combo point generation with Mutilate? How about the 7.6k Evis I was hit with in a 2v2 with 718 resil (20% damage from crit reduction) and 20% armor.  40% damage reduction from crits, yet I still get hit for nearly 8k.  There is pretty much no way to get away from a rogue. CP has no DR, even if I can get away to bandage, Wound Poison takes away 50% of that.

And in a Mage/Rogue team, the mage isn't doing all the damage, because we (mages) don't even have time to get a cast off before the guy falls over dead.

How about Dismantle? You know that thing that makes fighting Warriors/DK's/Pallies/Rogues a joke.  Trainable at level 30, makes the target sit there sticking his thumb up his ass.

How about Sap/Blind, the enemy's friend just sits there bufftuckin themselves with a rusty railroad spike for atleast 8 seconds.  Seeing as you aren't even 80 on that totally awesome rogue, I doubt you realize that 8 seconds is long enough for your partner to fall to the ground and twitch like a epileptic being attacked by strobe light.

GG Zondana, you are truely, the biggest fail in all of Azeroth.

If you feel like this was a post directed as a "omg nerf mages!" and it got you upset i am sorry. It was not meant as this. Sure Mutilate gives off nice CP's and SURE Evis CAN crit like crazy! However, you do complain about Evis crit's for 8K while almost every class can do this ATM. Only Evis requires us to build up CP's first.

8K frostbolt crit? sure^^
8K Shadowbolt crit? dunno... :S (haven't seen them lately)
8K Ferocious Bite crit? Sure thing! my friend has done that many times.
8K Bladestorm crit(s)? at me at least. (ofc this is more hit's added together. >.<)
8K divine storm crit? ofc!
8K star fire crit? yes sir.
8K Chain Lightning crit? (not sure about this either)
8K Explosive shot / aimed shot? (not sure^^)
8K runestrike? EASY!
8K ambush?..... can't say i have seen this for a while.

well... i could go on. The point is not: "OMG! I NEED MORE BURST!!!111!111!".
Neither was it: "gahh! my class is SO GOD DAMN SUCKY!!!1111!!" (even tho i'm not happy with the current state.)

The point is that the Rogue class in general gets more hate from other classes since we CAN lock people down. In fact, we are GREAT at doing just that. I just want more people to see, that this is in fact one of the reasons why they hate us so much. Even if the stun is coming from me, it does not mean that ALL the damage coming up is from ME.

Every one getting nuked by 2 people at the same time WILL FEEL THE BURN. This is true for almost any class doing the nuke. =)

[Blooddeity]

8K divine storm crit? ofc!

Stop lying. Divine storm can never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever crit for 8k on a single target in PVP. Well maybe when the level cap is raised to 100 but that's another story completely. Judgements can crit for 8k yes but divine storm can't. Want to prove me wrong? Show me da screen...... no screen??? why cause divine storm can't crit for 8k that's why.

[edit]BTW Rogues are more than just an annoying class. Sure other classes have more burst than Rogues at the moment but rogues have more than just bursts. Rogues can stick to a class better than any other in the game and rogues can get away from any class better than any other class in the game. Rogue attacks are fast and they have a high continuity in damage. Other classes that deal damage are much easier interrupted or basically run out of resources.

Low cooldowns, fast attacks, -50% on healing, stun locks, continues flow of resources without having to be worried about being drained or running out. That is what makes rogues so strong and dare I say it just a damn right straight out of the box cheap-OP class.

Sure being a ret pally might be "no-skill" like people claim only 3 buttons to push, but that argument kinda becomes invalid since the paladin actually only has 3 buttons to push and then he is just staring at his cooldowns waiting which one comes up next. I mean give a ret paladin skills and he can use them. It's kind of stupid to say your class takes no skill if that class doesn't really have any skills.

[Surfd]

ferocious bite also requires combo pts AND excess energy to burn.

And while a starfire crit of 8k isnt unusual, it isnt that often. usually requires Earth and Moon Debuff, AND boomkin usually have a signifigantly lower crit chance on starfire then rogues have on Evisc, like 20% or more lower base chance.

[Zondana]

Ok, i must say i'm sorry to the paladins that feel offended. I guess i was misinformed but that is corrected now. >.< So say Judgement then. i just know that Something in that glowing swirling ball of paladin has hit me for more than 8K. (and i assumed it was the 51 point talent skill.)

Most of our escape options is easily countered and yes, we DO stick good on to enemies, but we can also, as all other close combat classes be easily countered and escaped from.

Don't even ever mention vanish... it has a 80% fail chance if any one in the arena has you targeted... -_-

And YES, i do know that ferocious bite requires Combo points. That is NOT the point... >.< The point is that our burst IS. NOT. INSANE!!! >.< not by any standards. (except priests^^) It's actually quite normal for most classes to be able to do some good burst ATM and Rogues is NOT outstanding. (Then again, this IS off-topic.)

I Would like to hear peoples opinion on my topic tho. I would like to see if people out there can actually see this or if people think i'm just posting bull****.

PS. This post was never intended as offensive against ANY other class. =)

[raikiri]

LOL WHAT? On paper, a lot of abilities are borderline underpowered, untill you factor in talent / glyph synergies, then they just go right into Overpowered. you're right. evocate healing you to almost full is quite OP. as well as 5yard range on your ice lance vs. my running over waterLOLOLOL

I don't play a rogue as a main. I have a rogue alt in the low 40's range. However, it took me exactly 1 minute with the talent calculator to see that this has got to be the dumbest thing i have ever seen anyone post.
rogues are easy to button mash til 80.
To get mutilate, you need Overkill. Overkill reduces the energy cost of all abilities used while in stealth and immediately after exiting stealth for 6 seconds by 10.

Also, any mutilate rogue is likely to have vigor. increases their max energy by 10.
A quick look at glyphs indicates that:
- there is a glyph that increases the effect of Vigor by an additional 10.
- there is a glyph that reduces the energy cost of Mutilate by 5 show me where you got this.

So now, you have a rogue with 120 energy, who jumps you with mutilates that cost 45 energy for the first 6 seconds he comes out of stealth.

Chances are, they also have Seal Fate and Relentless strikes.

120 total energy, 45 energy cost Mutilates which grant 3 CP on a crit. You do the math.
did you total in the energy cost of cheapshot? i can usually get in 1 muti after a cheapshot. then hope they don't BoF/trinket out of my KS
2 mutilates
a 95% chance 5 pt (Thanks to Seal Fate) Eviscerate or Kidney Shot, which btw, thanks to Relentless strikes and Overkill actually costs nothing.
followed by another mutilate or two?
all in 4 or 5 global cooldowns practically as fast as you can spam them?
mages talking about 4-5 global cooldowns. irony?btw this will rarely kill anyone with decent gear. not even pvp gear, just decent gear.
Thats probably enough damage to kill most unsuspecting cloth and leather classes before they even have a chance to land back on their chair after the shock of having a rogue jump them out of nowhere.
shock? or no cooldowns. if you're talking about BG a rogue usually doesn't stealth from across the map. if about arenas, l2gladius. ganking? anyone and everyone can gank.
Nahhh, couldnt POSSIBLY be much burst there.

Oh, whats that, I wasnt opening with a stun? Ok:

50 CS (2cp)
45 Mutilate (3 cp crit)
5pt Evisc (free, Overkill, Relentless strikes) free?
45 Mutilate (2 cp crit)
and then wait a few secs for more energy, but not like it matters, cause they are still stunned for at least 1 or two more sec anyway....

too bad you're basing your theorycraft on the enemy being a braindead retard.
clothies?
l2trinket out of kidneyshot and leave us with half to nearly empty energy.
mages can: trinket, blink, frost nova, water elemental lolshattercombo10kcrit.
see how that works?
also, i don't remember mutilate being 45 energy. you fail at theorycrafting. like. you're bad.

[Zondana]

Well, i guess my topic has outlived it's time. To bad, i would really like to hear more peoples opinions on this.

BTW everyone, let's try and keep hostility to a minimum? >.< xD

[raikiri]

[Sorry for double post]
Well, i guess my thread has outlived it's time. To bad, i would really like to hear more peoples opinions on this.

back on subject; i actually agree that rogues get shafted. rogues and warlocks actually. "all locks do is fear fear fear."
"all rogues do is stun stun stun."
locks take a good amount of skill to play.
even rogues take a good amount of skill to play.
but there are counters and ways to beat a rogue. people just need to learn how to affect us in the hardest way.ie taking away our stuns through an ability, keeping us out of stealth, kiting after all our CD's are down, etc.

[Zondana]

locks take a good amount of skill to play.
even rogues take a good amount of skill to play.

Even tho this is off topic i would like to comment on this.

I do truly believe that for all classes in the game, this is true. There is a golden rule for ALL classes. They are all easy to learn and play.
But they are also ALL hard to master.

So saying a class is "Easy mode" will be wrong no mater what class you are talking about.

[Lagspike]

Even tho this is off topic i would like to comment on this.

I do truly believe that for all classes in the game, this is true. There is a golden rule for ALL classes. They are all easy to learn and play.
But they are also ALL hard to master.

So saying a class is "Easy mode" will be wrong no mater what class you are talking about.

I don't think it is just that. In order to master one class, you have to kind of master all. In arena it is so crucial that you know other classes, as good, if not better than your own. I can remember getting my Belf Paladin to 80 quickly and doing some BGs. It took well over 2 months before people realised that Blessing of Protection (as it was called back then) only made you immune to Physical damage.