Something about this spec bothers me

[Martini]

Okay so, I logged on last night, list of to-dos a mile long but first things first.
Speccing my main spec.

But while I was putting in my last few points onto ret I came to a snag. Pursuit of Justice or Crusade.

Pusuit of Justice - Utility ability. I move fast. I can pick things up milisecinds faster. And I am disarmed a few seconds less? What boss freaking disarms that I need to worry about at this point anyway..?

Crusade - I do more dmage to everything double damage to ALOT of specific of things. (by the way I didn't notice, what type is the majority of Ulduar?)

--->>>>Currently I am running with this<<<---

But do I really need pursuit. It is a nice ability, but if I were to put a point system on which ability would come out on top I wonder which one it one be.

If you do decide to participate in this discussion..

This is not about Ardent Defender. I have it, I like it I'm keeping it.
This is not about Divinity, I don't have it, I dont' want it. I am fully aware of what it does, I'm not taking it, please don't talk about it...
This is also not about any otehr part of my spec. If I wish to ask about any other part I'll search around then decide on my own. This is about the two abilities listed above.

And even after that little rant I bet i still get responses on other parts of my spec...

[Copain]

I can't see the talent spec for some reason.

What I will say is that I prefered getting The Pursuit of Justice. I like the bonus speed, and who knows if a boss or something will disarm? Plus some heroic mobs Disarm and I still run some of those from time to time.

EDIT: Like I said, I can't see the picture/spec. But, if you don't think either of them are useful, just add it to another prot talent or something?

I know you said you don't like Divinity, that's fine, but if you don't think the other ones do much for you, I think it'd be a good iea to get something that gives you a passive (always active) helpful bonus =p.

[Draco cracona]

I prefer dropping touched for both crusade and PoJ (and dropping some from conv for PoJ too tbh) - I like divinity, personally, as it's survivability, but touched is worse than crusade for TPS if you're putting out over 3.8k TPS.

[Martini]

The problem isn't not liking either. Its that I like both. But 1 point in Crusader seems like somewhat of a waste to me. So I really didn't word it right. What I'm really getting at is should I bother with PoJ and just get full Crusader, or is PoJ realy useful enough to be in my spec. Only time I ever really really seen it's usefulness was on Thad. And that because i was running a 2400XT card BIG FAIL, and I swear I lagged at the edge almost everytime. I didn't alwatys fall, but I always got this sickening feeling in my stomach for each jump. 9600GT has cured me of that feeling, but now is PoJ worth the 2 talent points I am placing in it?

[Copain]

I prefer dropping touched for both crusade and PoJ (and dropping some from conv for PoJ too tbh) - I like divinity, personally, as it's survivability, but touched is worse than crusade for TPS if you're putting out over 3.8k TPS.

Why drop Touched? While I like the bonus move speed or damage, you'd actually be LOSSING damage since you'll be lossing all of your spell power (because you aren't using Spell power gear anymore, and most of our tanking things are.. spells..).

[Draco cracona]

I'd say - yes. I like it. However, you'd get a lot better out of ret if you dropped 2/5 conviction for maxing out crusade - you can have your crusade and PoJ; the comparison you should be making for PoJ is 2% crit against the 15% speed, or 2% crit v 7 sta and 8% movement speed when factoring in the boot enchant. Crusade>Conviction; 2% more damage is better than 2% crit, as a lot of our abilities can't crit, and when they do it's only +100%, if every attack could crit then they'd be much closer. Also, I believe there's a lot of giants in Ulduar, but not sure - Crusade is worth it; especially when you factor in that you can drop some from touched for it. Now, Touched v conviction isn't comething I've looked at tbh, you need at least one in touched if you're only grabbing 1/2 SA and barely scraping through lower prot though.

Copain - Touched is less threat than crusade if you're under 3.8k TPS. SP only affects consec, SoV and judge; around 120 TPS iirc.

[Copain]

Copain - Touched is less threat than crusade if you're under 3.8k TPS. SP only affects consec, SoV and judge; around 120 TPS iirc.

What about Avengers Shield? It just seems.. wrong to get rid of something like that since what you named, and Avenger's shield are a good amount of our Tank Threat.

[iktankniet]

take e4e if you get critted. lol

[Martini]

I'd say - yes. I like it. However, you'd get a lot better out of ret if you dropped 2/5 conviction for maxing out crusade - you can have your crusade and PoJ; the comparison you should be making for PoJ is 2% crit against the 15% speed, or 2% crit v 7 sta and 8% movement speed when factoring in the boot enchant. Crusade>Conviction; 2% more damage is better than 2% crit, as a lot of our abilities can't crit, and when they do it's only +100%, if every attack could crit then they'd be much closer. Also, I believe there's a lot of giants in Ulduar, but not sure - Crusade is worth it; especially when you factor in that you can drop some from touched for it. Now, Touched v conviction isn't comething I've looked at tbh, you need at least one in touched if you're only grabbing 1/2 SA and barely scraping through lower prot though.

Copain - Touched is less threat than crusade if you're under 3.8k TPS. SP only affects consec, SoV and judge; around 120 TPS iirc.

This is something I didn't reall give any thought too. The reason Crusade bothered me in the first place is because I do not like un capped talents for some reason. It's some mental issue I have when I look at my spec. I just can't stand it unless it is wholely justified. i.e improved judgements having 1 point.

In this case I agree wih not capping Conviction for crusade.

So now my spec would look like this

That's a lot better, and now I can sleep peacefully at night, yay thanks guys. Keep posting replys though. More ideas are always nice.

[Draco cracona]

What about Avengers Shield? It just seems.. wrong to get rid of something like that since what you named, and Avenger's shield are a good amount of our Tank Threat.

Forgot AS tbh - recalculating wit that factored in and a correction on JoV, glyphed AS ofc, assuming 800 SP as before, coeff of 7%:

Glyphed AS - an extra 112 damage/30s; that's an extra 7.09 TPS or an extra 224 frontloaded threat.
Unglyphed - 0 additional TPS, as it's not good enough to use in your rotation.

Breakdowns for other spells:
Sov - .088 SP/15s; 4.69 DPS; 8.91 TPS;
JoV - .22 SP/9s*1.5 for stack; 29.33 DPS; 55.7 TPS;
Consec - 0.04/tick; 32 DPS; 60.8 TPS.

Total, w/o 1h spec - 132.5 TPS. after that, it's 145.75 TPS, breaking even with crusade at 4.8k TPS now (higher as I forgot the scaling of the coeff with stacks on JoV), above that crusade wins, and it's relatively easy to do 5-6k TPS tbh, as well as a higher amount of burst potential for frontloading threat from crusade as HotR/SotR are not affected by SP. Pretty much means that touched is going to beat conviction though, which I haven't looked at that much but is going to be worse than crusade.

Closer than I thought, but Crusade wins over touched, which is almost certainly going to win over conv.

[Martini]

Forgot AS tbh - recalculating wit that factored in and a correction on JoV, glyphed AS ofc, assuming 800 SP as before, coeff of 7%:

Glyphed AS - an extra 112 damage/30s; that's an extra 7.09 TPS or an extra 224 frontloaded threat.
Unglyphed - 0 additional TPS, as it's not good enough to use in your rotation.

Breakdowns for other spells:
Sov - .088 SP/15s; 4.69 DPS; 8.91 TPS;
JoV - .22 SP/9s*1.5 for stack; 29.33 DPS; 55.7 TPS;
Consec - 0.04/tick; 32 DPS; 60.8 TPS.

Total, w/o 1h spec - 132.5 TPS. after that, it's 145.75 TPS, breaking even with crusade at 4.8k TPS now (higher as I forgot the scaling of the coeff with stacks on JoV), above that crusade wins, and it's relatively easy to do 5-6k TPS tbh, as well as a higher amount of burst potential for frontloading threat from crusade as HotR/SotR are not affected by SP. Pretty much means that touched is going to beat conviction though, which I haven't looked at that much but is going to be worse than crusade.

Closer than I thought, but Crusade wins over touched, which is almost certainly going to win over conv.

Most of that was scanned b my eyes, but my brain said uh hell no too damn early for this BS...

But what I did gather, please correct me if I'm wrong of course, Crusade, Touched Conviction.

Which means that filling out Crusade, filling out Touched, and 3 points in conviction is an okay thing to do. If I want to get all three with the other talents I have.

COnfirm deny opinions on the matter?

[Copain]

Forgot AS tbh - recalculating wit that factored in and a correction on JoV, glyphed AS ofc, assuming 800 SP as before, coeff of 7%:

Glyphed AS - an extra 112 damage/30s; that's an extra 7.09 TPS or an extra 224 frontloaded threat.
Unglyphed - 0 additional TPS, as it's not good enough to use in your rotation.

Breakdowns for other spells:
Sov - .088 SP/15s; 4.69 DPS; 8.91 TPS;
JoV - .22 SP/9s*1.5 for stack; 29.33 DPS; 55.7 TPS;
Consec - 0.04/tick; 32 DPS; 60.8 TPS.

Total, w/o 1h spec - 132.5 TPS. after that, it's 145.75 TPS, breaking even with crusade at 4.8k TPS now (higher as I forgot the scaling of the coeff with stacks on JoV), above that crusade wins, and it's relatively easy to do 5-6k TPS tbh, as well as a higher amount of burst potential for frontloading threat from crusade as HotR/SotR are not affected by SP. Pretty much means that touched is going to beat conviction though, which I haven't looked at that much but is going to be worse than crusade.

Closer than I thought, but Crusade wins over touched, which is almost certainly going to win over conv.

Unless I read something wrong, you are forgetting HotR and SotR. I know you mentioned them, and while they aren't affected by Touched by the light, you still USE those, so you have to factor in someone using those to.

With the Spell power you have AS/Sov/JoV/Consec/(not sure but MAYBE Holy shield too? I know it is affected by Block Value but I recall something about SP..) being affected, but you still HAVE your other spells.

And while you still have your other spells with crusade, it seems that since the other spells aren't affected as much, it'd atleast balance out.

I'm at shcool and a bit pressed so I can't get all the data, sorry ...

[Martini]

Unless I read something wrong, you are forgetting HotR and SotR. I know you mentioned them, and while they aren't affected by Touched by the light, you still USE those, so you have to factor in someone using those to.

With the Spell power you have AS/Sov/JoV/Consec/(not sure but MAYBE Holy shield too? I know it is affected by Block Value but I recall something about SP..) being affected, but you still HAVE your other spells.

And while you still have your other spells with crusade, it seems that since the other spells aren't affected as much, it'd atleast balance out.

I'm at shcool and a bit pressed so I can't get all the data, sorry ...

Holy shield is affected through the refelction damage, Block value affects how much damage the block absorbes.
HotR is affected by strength, same with ShotR (through BV from Strngth) and obviously stright block value.

And I keep egtting the ipression that someone is using AV in their rotation, if ou are please for the love of all that is paladin, stop if you are. 96969696969696969696969696969. Oh wait we got exorcism didn't we so the rotation should go 96969696969696969696969696

>.>

Don't mess with the rotaiton, the rotation is our soul's soothing music. Screw it up and out comes the angry beast within...

PS I'm sick of editing typos. Im on a keyboard that is straight fail, the key stick and do not depress in the sequence my hands are moving, and on top of that Im not the words greatest typer in the first palce. So if I screw up I apologize now for the past and future...

[Draco cracona]

Spellpower adds exactly zero to the damage of hammer or shield smacks; hence touched gives exactly 0 TS form those. while they're still there, and you're using them, they don't factor into the added threat from touched - you have your other spells that aren't affected, which is what makes touched fall behind. Assumed HS didn't scale; I was wrong on that though it seems. 9% coeff/charge makes it scale rather well; this leads to, inc. 1h spec and the 30% buff next patch, HS scaling at 103 damage/block from touched. assuming 50% block rate, 2.00s attack speed, that's an extra 48.9 TPS, pushing the break even point up to 6.5k TPS. There goes that idea; it appears HS scales insanely well with SP. Also, parium - glyphed AS is worth slotting in for one in every 5 HotR attacks. other than that, you shouldn't use it.

My apologies; touched is back in.

[Martini]

Spellpower adds exactly zero to the damage of hammer or shield smacks; hence touched gives exactly 0 TS form those. while they're still there, and you're using them, they don't factor into the added threat from touched - you have your other spells that aren't affected, which is what makes touched fall behind. Assumed HS didn't scale; I was wrong on that though it seems. 9% coeff/charge makes it scale rather well; this leads to, inc. 1h spec and the 30% buff next patch, HS scaling at 103 damage/block from touched. assuming 50% block rate, 2.00s attack speed, that's an extra 48.9 TPS, pushing the break even point up to 6.5k TPS. There goes that idea; it appears HS scales insanely well with SP. Also, parium - glyphed AS is worth slotting in for one in every 5 HotR attacks. other than that, you shouldn't use it.

My apologies; touched is back in.

you can quote me on this..

"I will NEVER glyph AV. I'd rather give up my first born. No really I hate kids so I would...

[Sasquach]

As for the original topic, I would also agree that it is more of a Conviction vs Crusade argument rather than a Crusade vs PoJ one. I would definitely say that PoJ is a nice talent to have, and would rather have that over 2 threat points. So, its 2% crit for abilities that can crit, or 2/4% more damage with everything... Crusade definitely wins out IMO.

Now, as for what the rest of the thread has turned into, I like my bouncing Avenger's Shield. If I need to pull a single target I will use either Exorcism or Taunt the target. The amount of initial threat build up that would be different is negligible and not a valid argument as I out-threat anyone and everyone, even from the start. And I will not be using Exorcism in my normal rotation, just in special situations. 969 FTW.

TbtL is a necessary talent as well IMO, it allows for a nice mixture and balance of single target threat from other talents, and multiple target threat from those 3 points. As a Paladin there will ALWAYS be situations where we are tanking multiple mobs, whether it is trash or whatever the case may be, and it is still very useful on single targets as well.

Also, WoWWiki says: "Holy Shield also benefits from 5.6% of your Attack Power plus 9% of your Spell Power for each charge."

What this tells me is that the amount blocked is based off of Block Value, naturally... And the amount of damage done per block is based off of AP + SP. So technically it scales with Block Value, Spell Power, and Attack Power.

All of that being said, I like your second talent spec, and have done a similar one myself, although I did put a few filler points into Divinity myself, and 3 into HotC rather than Benediction, and both points into SA until I can get used to using Divine Plea regularly lol... But IMO those are minor differences and most of which just vary depending on guild makeup, etc...

[Phydeaux]

Get both... take the 2 points from conviction and place them in crusade.

2% damage is greater than 2% crit. and with the listed types of mobs.. you get an additional 2% on top of that.

[Martini]

As for the original topic, I would also agree that it is more of a Conviction vs Crusade argument rather than a Crusade vs PoJ one. I would definitely say that PoJ is a nice talent to have, and would rather have that over 2 threat points. So, its 2% crit for abilities that can crit, or 2/4% more damage with everything... Crusade definitely wins out IMO.

Now, as for what the rest of the thread has turned into, I like my bouncing Avenger's Shield. If I need to pull a single target I will use either Exorcism or Taunt the target. The amount of initial threat build up that would be different is negligible and not a valid argument as I out-threat anyone and everyone, even from the start. And I will not be using Exorcism in my normal rotation, just in special situations. 969 FTW.

TbtL is a necessary talent as well IMO, it allows for a nice mixture and balance of single target threat from other talents, and multiple target threat from those 3 points. As a Paladin there will ALWAYS be situations where we are tanking multiple mobs, whether it is trash or whatever the case may be, and it is still very useful on single targets as well.

Also, WoWWiki says: "Holy Shield also benefits from 5.6% of your Attack Power plus 9% of your Spell Power for each charge."

What this tells me is that the amount blocked is based off of Block Value, naturally... And the amount of damage done per block is based off of AP + SP. So technically it scales with Block Value, Spell Power, and Attack Power.

All of that being said, I like your second talent spec, and have done a similar one myself, although I did put a few filler points into Divinity myself, and 3 into HotC rather than Benediction, and both points into SA until I can get used to using Divine Plea regularly lol... But IMO those are minor differences and most of which just vary depending on guild makeup, etc...

Yeah I didn't go HotC because we have 12351624 paladins in our guild and at least one of their soecs is ret.... HotC should never be needed from me. Same with Blessing of might. Givs some versatility, but meh, I'm stingy. As for two points in SA I forget DP all the time, and I started using light last night instead of wisdom (cause I noticed nobody was using it...). I even start boss pulls with less than half my mana bar. BoSanc and 1 pt SA are Way more than enough to get you to full very quickly. Granted this was mostly on Razorscale so it's getting hit galore for those adds. Mr Arobic Robot I would try than on....

But all this is mute atm anyway, because I'm missing 10 talent points. Really now. I can deal with server crashes, I can deal with buggy trash, I can deal with peoples seconds specs being a little goofy, I can deal with the stupid amounts of lag we are getting from people returning to the game.

But how in the world, do you mess up a single specced person's talent points. Yay for me being lvl 70 with lvl 80 gear.....

tankfully it was all in the ret tree so all I was missing was some threat. Couldn't really notice on boss fights too much cept i was only doing 5K threat which was weird but meh...

Cmon GM's answer my ticket while I'm at work!!