[Enha] Gloves of the Fiery Behemoth or T7.5

[Cowiesh]

So we were in Uldu25 yesterday and I got http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45109. But i can't decide to use those or the t7.5. I will lose some crit and ap, but I gain some haste.

- 16ap
- 0.53% crit
+ 25 Haste ( 0.02mh / 0.02oh)

Should I use them for the xtra haste or just bank em and get em out for Flame Leviater for the higher item lvl.

[Barawr]

You are going to have to do some work here yourself as it really all depends on your other gear. Instead of asking us on this piece of gear and every future piece of gear download RAWR to help you decide. It is incredibly easy to use and will layout, gem, chant your gear accordingly. In a simple answer, if you are breaking your 4-piece than I would say no.

[Cowiesh]

Got hit and expe cap, and 4 t7 bonus without gloves.. Gonna check that RAWR add on

[Barawr]

[item=40262] or [item=40541] should be what every enhancement shaman with BiS has at the moment. Comparing that to [item=45109] will only give some slight differences.

I would in my opinion look at the GoFB as a better itemized piece for hunters. If swapping the gloves drops you below caps you would then need to refigure what to regem to gain the cap back, yata yata, etc. Overall the crit on the other mentioned gloves is going to benefit us more. You could work out all the math by hand, but instead we can now play smarter (and faster) using RAWR.

[autobahn1212]

Im having issues with this as well, after the patch rawr said t7.5 were better then frost gloves. Its also saving helm off ignis>t7.5 is better then frost>t7.5

[Barawr]

auto, I'm not sure what you are doing wrong because your results are wayyyyy off. T7.5 gloves for me have been pretty much at the bottom of the chart the whole time. Can you post your saved xml file in the RAWR thread so Levva or I can take a look?

[Kalioshas]

I'm having weird results in Rawr on some bits myself. Especially on gems, it offers me sta/ap regems as upgrade or such.
what I am trying to decide is what to chose- my old [item=40282] or [item=45301]

[Bleedthru]

I ran enhsim for my gear (all ilvl213 or higher) and then put the results in lootrank. For me (and your case may be different) the difference between those two bracers was negligible, although if I were to totally min/max the smothering inferno bracers were oh so marginally better. But as they are BoE I let the guild take them for selling.

As for the gloves, I can get my hit capped from a million different items (inc. Grim Toll) so I wear the t7.5 gloves for the expertise gem and 4 pce bonus.

In all of these cases it depends on the needs of the individual.

[Deleted]

I'm having weird results in Rawr on some bits myself. Especially on gems, it offers me sta/ap regems as upgrade or such.
what I am trying to decide is what to chose- my old [item=40282] or [item=45301]

Terribly difficult to advise if you don't say what version you were using. NB "the latest" is NOT a version number.

[Kalioshas]

Terribly difficult to advise if you don't say what version you were using. NB "the latest" is NOT a version number.

Rawr v2.2.0.9

[Deleted]

I'm having weird results in Rawr on some bits myself. Especially on gems, it offers me sta/ap regems as upgrade or such.
what I am trying to decide is what to chose- my old [item=40282] or [item=45301]

Can you explain what steps you take to see this problem. If I can do the same steps and see the problem myself I can fix it.

[Kalioshas]

Can you explain what steps you take to see this problem. If I can do the same steps and see the problem myself I can fix it.

after loading my character from armory
http://armory.wow-europe.com/charact...isper&n=Tariff
and looking in possible upgrades for bracers it tells me that my current 8exp8hit+32ap(I'm blacksmith) on slime stream bands is worse combo than 12sta16ap+32ap gemming. I don't have "force gem requirements" tab ticked and I've selected to have upgrades sorted by dps.
After I've "learned" to add new items the ulduar bracer seems to be an upgrade for me but the socketing part was confusing.

[Deleted]

after loading my character from armory
http://armory.wow-europe.com/charact...isper&n=Tariff
and looking in possible upgrades for bracers it tells me that my current 8exp8hit+32ap(I'm blacksmith) on slime stream bands is worse combo than 12sta16ap+32ap gemming. I don't have "force gem requirements" tab ticked and I've selected to have upgrades sorted by dps.
After I've "learned" to add new items the ulduar bracer seems to be an upgrade for me but the socketing part was confusing.

Socketing appears quite sensible, you are over the expertise cap so having a 8exp8hit gem is going to be towards the bottom of the list. Since the socket bonus is 8 AP, its actually worked out that socketing to get the extra AP is better, so recommends swapping for a blue hit gem in socket and AP gem in blacksmith socket. Seems reasonable to me.

[Kalioshas]

Socketing appears quite sensible, you are over the expertise cap so having a 8exp8hit gem is going to be towards the bottom of the list. Since the socket bonus is 8 AP, its actually worked out that socketing to get the extra AP is better, so recommends swapping for a blue hit gem in socket and AP gem in blacksmith socket. Seems reasonable to me.

That overcap in expertise did popped in my head, but then again- it didn't took into account that I'm 2hit rating short for spell hit cap so I was presuming it shows enchant/socket upgrade for each slot, otherwise shouldn't it be offering me to cap spell hit over socket?and 8ap socket bonus is hardly worth getting 12sta16ap gem over pure 32ap(20ap12sta<32ap)
p.s. didn't sorted out my caps yet since was unsure about upgrade.

[Kalioshas]

By the way, apologies to OP for derailing your post, this should of been said in Rawr enhance post :S

[Barawr]

In the end gaining the AP is a larger overall dps gain then grabbing another 2 measly hit (in your case). RAWR will attempt to reach the caps, but not at the costs of wasting a lot of stats overcapping in the process. This is the same thing many are seeing with expertise and RAWR only giving them 25 when optimized. Their current gear is very close to the amount of expertise rating necessary to reach 26 expertise so any gem or enchant to reach it would be a waste (once at cap and anything over). Therefore, RAWR tells you to gem for another stat which has no cap (usually AP) as the benefits are much greater.

[Kalioshas]

Ok thanks for clearing it out- still an amateur Rawr user here, just I would disagree with rawr about following socket bonus here, the rest makes sense.

[Deleted]

Almost.

Rawr does not "attempt to reach the cap". Rawr is just a long series of formulae that works out your total dps. Part of those formulae say things like your dodge amount is max(0, 6.5% - expertise rating / 32.78998947 -.25 * expertise). The max(0 bit means if the amount of expertise or expertise rating takes your dodge < 0 then make the dodge zero ie: you can't have negative dodges. This is effectively capping expertise.

So there are lots of formulae like this that are effectively a list of rules. What Rawr does is take your gear and work out your dps total using these rules. The rules are fixed and unchanging in a specific version of Rawr.

When constructing the charts it works out the dps with that socket empty. It then replaces each item in the chart with what you have runs the whole dps calculation again from scratch for each individual item and gets a new dps figure with that item equipped. The difference in dps is shown on the chart.

So if you think about it one head slot item with zero expertise and another with say 30 expertise, if you are capped without the head item then adding the head item in will not raise your dps from expertise so the one with zero should have a higher dps figure. ie: all that happens is it runs the calcs for those two items and sees which has higher dps. It does this by following each rule in turn.

The optimiser is exactly the same it takes every possible combination of your gear and does the ENTIRE calculation for every combination, ie: it runs through every single rule and does a fresh calculation for each and every combination you specify. Which ever combo comes out on top is the optimised set. This is the general way to think of it. in reality it does some clever stuff using "Genetic Algorithms" (google is your friend) to reduce the number of possible combinations it needs to check. However for every combination it does check it runs through every single last rule.

ie: Rawr very specifically DOES NOT try to reach any hit, expertise, crit etc etc etc value, it simply runs exactly the same set of rules in full for every combination. If the rules are correct it will get the correct answer. If the rules are wrong I will fix them, and I need you're assistance to check the rules.

Checking the rules doesn't mean "it recommends elemental gear" it means looking at the output perhaps comparing it with EnhSim, changing one item eg: a gem, comparing with EnhSim again and seeing what differences are observed. Do they both give the same change in dps? Is it different? How is it different?

Or doing things like running a full dps check and noting that flametongue damage is out by 3% but if you tick this buff then its spot on. Or if you tick this buff then its 20% out. etc. ie: see how it compares in base state and see what happens if you change something. At present my focus has been on getting the base state comparisons right. All the crit rates should now be right (in v2.2.0.10 at least) however there are still some variances in base dps that I need to figure out why.

If we tinker with the rules until we have a set of rules that work correctly then everything in Rawr that selects gear will work right. The rules are the core of Rawr.

[Deleted]

Ok thanks for clearing it out- still an amateur Rawr user here, just I would disagree with rawr about following socket bonus here, the rest makes sense.

It depends if you chose the drop down for Overall Points (including stamina for survival) or DPS Points. If you choose overall points then the extra stamina has a value too. If you choose DPS points it may give different recommendations.

[Barawr]

It does not just simply follow all socket bonuses. If the socket bonus is a valid upgrade vs. not then it will take it. Also, if there is a way to grab a socket bonus using the gems it will be socketing with it will rearrange to grab them (even stam bonuses if selected). No point in wasting a bonus if it is possible to reach without using a downgrade gem.

edit: As Levva has told me before, it does not work at all like EnhSim.