Durka durka

[Stieger23]

To the OP:

Until you've actually entered Ulduar and completed it, you probably shouldn't complain that it's too easy.

I don't disagree, but I am getting tired of seeing some of the early bosses nerfed. Kologarn was a loot bag before the no-more-tank-swapping nerf. Maybe I'm just an elitist, but I really do think some of these encounters were "fine" to "slightly too easy" BEFORE they were changed. Razorscale, XT and Kologarn in their original incarnations were very beatable even by skilled casual guilds.

[superstargoddess]

Some of this stuff is hard, even for regular good players, and I am so tired of "omg this stuff is easy but I haven't done it yet and neither have many other people" threads. Unless you are one of those very few "pro" guilds, this stuff is hard. Some of it, like Yogg, I think is a bit too complex- especially when trying to manage it on a 25 person level.

[nrross]

When people were first entering SSC and TK, those heroics WERE very difficult:

H Slabs: Was long as hell and required 2-3 CCs (like 3 mages, tank, healer). No one wanted to do it.

H Shattered Halls: Same deal. Required a ridiculous amount of CC to make it smooth.

H Arc: Most groups, if they went at all, skipped the first boss. He simply consumed groups without T4+ gear.

Generally speaking, some Heroics were really difficult until they were overgeared, unless you liked taking inordinate amounts of time in them (H Crypts was a nightmare even after you had gear and didn't have a priest / hunter to CC).

All in all, I'm not sure just what your point is with your little story beyond hearsay... The fact remains that the one group was sitting in heroics, and the other was working on Tier 5 raid content, which was pretty difficult for a long time.

Agreed. I have only done AC once, never again. I hated SLabs, I hated SH but I did like Arc, I felt it was easy but that was purely because I almost always went on guild runs where everyone was, or was close to full epic. Tried with a tank in greens and blues. Oh my word it was a disaster. Some HC's were, even right upto the lolpatch, more difficult than some raid encounters. Especially Kara, Lolreaver and Sololololion.

[Evilsoap]

Mentally retarded? Did he just call me and my crew Mentally Retarded?

My 10 man group has yet to kill any bosses in Ulduar except for FL and XT. Most of that is because we raid 3-6 hours per week and only around half of the people are consistent; the rest roll through on various nights due to external obligations. Some nights we don't have enough to run at all.

We are not mentally retarded. A person's skill in playing video games has little if not nothing to do with their mental capacity. Some of the worst WOW players I know are some of the most intelligent people I've ever met. WOW may not be a twitch game, but it does require skills and reactions that not everyone finds easy to master.

For example, you say "how hard is it to not stand in the fire" and scoff, but sometimes people get tunnel vision and don't see the fire right away, especially when they're anxious or trying really hard to replace what they lack in natural or practiced aptitude with pure effort and concentration. It's not an intelligence question.

I know a guy who used to be one of the top DPSers in his guild back in BC doing Kara and Zul'Aman. Now he runs 5 mans with me at lunch and he's the worst DPSer in our group (different toon, FYI, so no gear comments please). Why? He barely plays anymore. Those skills have eroded. He's not up on how his class has changed. He's too freaking busy. Should he be punished for having a life by being locked out of seeing the content that blizzard very likely spent 2,000 man hours (or more) developing? Is that what you guys want? Is that what blizzard wants?

We do not get the same rewards as the "better players" because we just don't have the time to put into learning the bosses that others do, nor have we had enough time in the past to get over-geared in Naxx25.

Let's keep this conversation civil and keep the exaggerations to a minimum.

There is no fundamental flaw in the game; the fundamental flaw of exclusiveness has been fixed and irks the hell out of some people. Doing the hard modes is just not special enough for some.

The fact is this: Nobody who has not downed Alagon can claim that anything is too easy. Want to be special again? Put in the work. And the only guys who have done that have put in countless hours in both PTR raiding and raiding since 3.1 dropped. In fact, those guys have easily put more hours into Ulduar than I or anyone in my crew is likely to throw down before the next expansion is released.

I think you completely missed my point, and I think I know why.

[Indarys]

Especially Kara, Lolreaver and Sololololion.

This just shows how little you played. Prenerf, Solerion was near impossible, and many kara bosses were much harder too.

[superstargoddess]

Agreed. I have only done AC once, never again. I hated SLabs, I hated SH but I did like Arc, I felt it was easy but that was purely because I almost always went on guild runs where everyone was, or was close to full epic. Tried with a tank in greens and blues. Oh my word it was a disaster. Some HC's were, even right upto the lolpatch, more difficult than some raid encounters. Especially Kara, Lolreaver and Sololololion.

Aaaah, yeah I remember when those heroics sucked, though I didn't ever have much of a problem with Arc. But the others, blaaaah. I'm glad that heroics aren't retardedly hard anymore so some people can maybe attempt to learn their classes a little bit better before trying to raid. Though it seems a lot of impatient people skip heroics and try to do raids anyway for some reason.

[Suikiele]

I am bored, so forgive me. What you seem to be suggesting is that only good players have fought the bosses you listed there. This is a horrible fallacy. This implies that no one who enters Ulduar for the first time is good, regardless of how well they can play their class and that goodness can only be attained by fighting said bosses. This simply isn't true. A good player is a good player regardless of whatever bosses they have or have not killed, or fought.

I for instance consider myself a good player, I used to raid MH and BT in Kara gear, MT healing and I never failed to perform. I no longer raid because times do not suit me anymore. However, I therefore cannot be good, since I haven't fought the bosses you listed. By your logic, there was never a good player before 3.1, however most people will agree that this is not true, good players predate 3.1 by many years.

Fwwwoooooooooooosh.... You missed that one, buddy.

He was saying he wanted the difficult fights (like Mimiron) and fewer "Gimme" fights (like XT and Razorscale). His conditional was that these bosses are slightly more difficult than the average Ulduar affair, and that most good players would agree they would like more of the former, not the later.

"A good player is a good player regardless of whatever bosses they have or have not killed, or fought." This confuses me a bit... you imply the quality of a player can be measured in a bubble, or something. Which would mean that players are unable to improve (or get worse). Quality is measured through performance in this game, but it doesn't have to be just the fights you seemed to imply the other person was pointing to, but it has to occur somewhere.

Oh, as far as fallacies go: "I used to raid MH and BT in Kara gear, MT healing and I never failed to perform." Appeal to Authority. No one cares.

[Whitcher]

Your "hardcore" raiders have already cleared the content pre-nerfs. Quit yer bitchin.

[rrrrupp]

Being a hardcore player I'll chime in a bit about why hard modes just don't cut it.

After killing yoggy there's nothing new left in the game. Sure we have Algalon, but there's too many stupid things blizzard did about the encounter that has taken all my excitement about the encounter away (mainly only being able to do the encounter for 1 hour each week). We have hard modes still to do but it's mostly the same thing with a VERY slight change that makes it harder.

Some of the bosses don't have hard modes and the massive nerfs to them makes them not very fun to clear. Razorscale for example used to be pretty fun because it was a dps race to beat the enrage. It was similar to c'thun where you had a sense of urgency when razor was down because if your dps was not high enough you would wipe to enrage. Now with the nerfs, you can go at your own pace with no sense of excitement or urgency to the encounter at all.

The trash has been nerfed so hard it's not fun or interesting. Anything new or original about the trash was removed. The golems were pretty cool with the red runes they would drop that turn you into a bomb. It didn't need a nerf, casuals can easily realize you have the rune and need to run away. Apparently blizzard thought that this was too hard for the bads though? Well that trash is mind numbing now. A few other examples would be the mobs that blow up after x seconds of being dead. Before you had to watch out, "Uh oh he's going to explode in 10 seconds, get away". Now it's like, let's dance on the mob and take the 4000 damage.

A lot of the bosses have hard modes that are boring. Hodir anyone? The hard mode is just doing the encounter fast. Nothing new at all. I'm sorry but that's not fun it's just a gear/lag check. Half the attempts on our server we have to wipe after 10 seconds because we had 2-3 second cast lag. It's not that the hard modes aren't hard, but most of the ones we've attempted so far aren't very fun.

Finally, the fact that tier gear is so easy to get is a bit of a slap in the face. What's the point in spending so much time on this game if I have the same gear as someone that spends 4 hours a week playing? Some of the set bonuses will be hard to give up for the hard mode gear.

[nrross]

Someone can also argue that the mentally retarded, often incorrectly referred to as casuals, want content to be more accessible because they want to get the same reward as the better players while putting in a fraction of the effort. It wouldn't be very difficult to equate them to people living off welfare checks asking for a raise, where do they get the nerve?

It isn't the same. You did a wonderful job in making yourself sound ignorant and uninformed. Clearly you have no idea what a retard is, I am guessing you heard someone call you it and you thought it would be an awesome thing to call others, without finding out its meaning. What you basically said is that people who don't spend every waking hour playing WoW must be mentally retarded, therefore having learning difficulties and work under reduced mental capacity. Are you saying that one develops mental maturity via WoW? See...this isn't actually true, it doesn't make any sense.

You also claim that all casuals want all rewards with no work put in. Again, not true. The term casual is a large umbrella term covering any player who isn't devoted to the game. Each put in a varied number of hours into the game, and therefore cannot be generalised. For instance my guild is a casual guild, it has only a few bosses left in Ulduar to kill, before the lolpatch it was half way through BT, we put in a lot of work in order to create progress, as do many guilds. You clearly have no concept of what a casual is.

At this point the uniqueness argument doesn't really have the same effect anymore, the 6 months before 3.1 made sure that everyone knew everyone else would have the same gear as they do in time. Horrible players are still horrible regardless of their gear, you can tell by their gems, their enchants, the way they play, the arguments they use on the forums. Now, I feel it's more of a matter of feeling insulted by how hollow the game is. Imagine going to an exam but instead of Calculus problems everyone is asked to solve 1+1 and is given 100% at the end regardless of what answer they gave, wouldn't the people who prepared feel offended? Would you accuse them of being egotistical if they did?

I like how you mention bad forum arguments. I wondered, is he just being sarcastic? If you are, you aren't good at it, as it does appear that you said that without any irony whatsoever. My point being, you don't make good forum arguments and are therefore implicated in your description of a bad player, way to go genius.

Your analogy is so poor, I cannot believe you actually put time into writing it. WoW is not that easy, stop saying it is as if it is some unquestionable fact. Secondly, when people do their calculus, people will get an A, some will get a B, some will get a C and some will fail. Varied amounts of effort, varied rewards, just like WoW. A guild that puts in no effort will gain no reward, to suggest it is sheer ignorance.

It isn't the effort involved that pisses people off. It is all about ego, they want to be in the elite few, so that they can derive a sense of superiority over others and maybe feel good about themselves. Because that elite few has been opened up, they cannot stand it, as raiding is as much to do with self esteem for them as it is for fun with others. Ego, it makes you look like an infant.

Bottom line is, people who want a challenge are being forced into the same playpen as the people who can't take 2 steps without tripping and falling face first into a void zone. With every dose of accessibility comes 10 doses of shallowness, and this game is getting fed accessibility by the gallon.

Not true. Bad players will not make it far in Ulduar, and certainly won't accomplish hard modes. Stop generalising things and blowing them out of proportion. Your argument is horrible, it is ignorant and I feel dirty even replying to it.

[nrross]

For the most part I agree with what you're trying to say,. You're trying to prove that a good player isn't determined by what bosses they've killed. I agree with that, but then you go on and use the fact that you attended old raids as proof that you are good... and raids contain bosses. So basically you're defending yourself with the argument that you're prosecuting. Ipso facto, you're contradicting yourself.

If only you had have read my post. He said only good players have faced certain specific bosses.

[wadark]

Being a hardcore player I'll chime in a bit about why hard modes just don't cut it.

After killing yoggy there's nothing new left in the game. Sure we have Algalon, but there's too many stupid things blizzard did about the encounter that has taken all my excitement about the encounter away (mainly only being able to do the encounter for 1 hour each week). We have hard modes still to do but it's mostly the same thing with a VERY slight change that makes it harder.

Some of the bosses don't have hard modes and the massive nerfs to them makes them not very fun to clear. Razorscale for example used to be pretty fun because it was a dps race to beat the enrage. It was similar to c'thun where you had a sense of urgency when razor was down because if your dps was not high enough you would wipe to enrage. Now with the nerfs, you can go at your own pace with no sense of excitement or urgency to the encounter at all.

The trash has been nerfed so hard it's not fun or interesting. Anything new or original about the trash was removed. The golems were pretty cool with the red runes they would drop that turn you into a bomb. It didn't need a nerf, casuals can easily realize you have the rune and need to run away. Apparently blizzard thought that this was too hard for the bads though? Well that trash is mind numbing now. A few other examples would be the mobs that blow up after x seconds of being dead. Before you had to watch out, "Uh oh he's going to explode in 10 seconds, get away". Now it's like, let's dance on the mob and take the 4000 damage.

A lot of the bosses have hard modes that are boring. Hodir anyone? The hard mode is just doing the encounter fast. Nothing new at all. I'm sorry but that's not fun it's just a gear/lag check. Half the attempts on our server we have to wipe after 10 seconds because we had 2-3 second cast lag. It's not that the hard modes aren't hard, but most of the ones we've attempted so far aren't very fun.

Finally, the fact that tier gear is so easy to get is a bit of a slap in the face. What's the point in spending so much time on this game if I have the same gear as someone that spends 4 hours a week playing? Some of the set bonuses will be hard to give up for the hard mode gear.

This is the first good response I've seen about "why hard modes don't cut it". But I'm inclined to disagree, I mean hard modes are still the same encounter, there's only so much that a hard mode can change an encounter before its something completely different. Usually it just has to be something simple like forcing you to do them faster. All in all, the hard modes all just boil down to DPSing faster and harder, and making healers keep up with more damage. Every encounter can't be Sarth or Flame Leviathan that really adds something new to the fight because how fast would that get old?

Although, I do agree about the tier gear thing. I personally think tier gear should be BiS for that tier of raiding, for the same reason you said, its hard to give up some of the nice set bonuses for a few more stats/spellpower/whatever.

P.S. I like the "algalon hour". Gives the fight a sense of urgency, and requires a great strategy and a great group of people, instead of just banging your head against the boss endlessly until the stars align.

[superstargoddess]

Being a hardcore player I'll chime in a bit about why hard modes just don't cut it.

After killing yoggy there's nothing new left in the game. Sure we have Algalon, but there's too many stupid things blizzard did about the encounter that has taken all my excitement about the encounter away (mainly only being able to do the encounter for 1 hour each week). We have hard modes still to do but it's mostly the same thing with a VERY slight change that makes it harder.

Some of the bosses don't have hard modes and the massive nerfs to them makes them not very fun to clear. Razorscale for example used to be pretty fun because it was a dps race to beat the enrage. It was similar to c'thun where you had a sense of urgency when razor was down because if your dps was not high enough you would wipe to enrage. Now with the nerfs, you can go at your own pace with no sense of excitement or urgency to the encounter at all.

The trash has been nerfed so hard it's not fun or interesting. Anything new or original about the trash was removed. The golems were pretty cool with the red runes they would drop that turn you into a bomb. It didn't need a nerf, casuals can easily realize you have the rune and need to run away. Apparently blizzard thought that this was too hard for the bads though? Well that trash is mind numbing now. A few other examples would be the mobs that blow up after x seconds of being dead. Before you had to watch out, "Uh oh he's going to explode in 10 seconds, get away". Now it's like, let's dance on the mob and take the 4000 damage.

A lot of the bosses have hard modes that are boring. Hodir anyone? The hard mode is just doing the encounter fast. Nothing new at all. I'm sorry but that's not fun it's just a gear/lag check. Half the attempts on our server we have to wipe after 10 seconds because we had 2-3 second cast lag. It's not that the hard modes aren't hard, but most of the ones we've attempted so far aren't very fun.

Finally, the fact that tier gear is so easy to get is a bit of a slap in the face. What's the point in spending so much time on this game if I have the same gear as someone that spends 4 hours a week playing? Some of the set bonuses will be hard to give up for the hard mode gear.

So you are saying you have killed hardmode Yogg?

[Narfwak]

Get the 25 Man proto-drake to show off your awesomeness, park it outside the bank, or on Krasus' landing and watch everyone walking by, thinking to yourself, "Oh yeah, he so wishes he was me", the whole while having typed /afk to make people think you are not there watching them.

It's like you know me.

[Bloodlusted]

I hate to burst your bubble, but his guild actually has 122 80s in it and his GM only has thorim/mimiron/general/yoggy left for 25s and is on yoggy in 10s...
Doesn't change the fact that HE'S never been there (at least on the toon in his sig) but look past the first 2 ranks in a guild before you jump to stupid conclusions =)

So you say that he has his alt on his sig and has the right to QQ about stuff his GUILD(hint: not him) has done?

[avatarr]

I can understand that you want there to be a more noticable difference between hardcore players and casuals. althought i got my naxx gear a step b4 the casuals, it wasnt long b4 they had all the same gear as me, aside from maybe the pennant cloak, and the heroic key neck. having these scrubs think they were as good as me, because they had all the same gear was upsetting.

Uldaur is at least thougher than naxx. and one huge point that you are missing is HARD MODES. the uldaur hard modes are not easy. not as hard as sunwell, but not easy. now there at least enough of them to seperate me from the scrubs, just by the gear i wear.

[Wheres]

I'd rather have a meaningful loss than a shallow victory, and a shallow victory is what you're getting every time you kill a boss, if that's what makes people happy then there's nothing I can do except pity.

-EvilSoap

If you no longer enjoy PvE content, either go to PvP, or stop paying your subscription. Clearly you are unhappy, no need to bring the rest of the wow community down, or flame blizz because they did not tailor this game to you. It is pretty obvious you have not downed the hard-mode Ulduar bosses, and yet you complain non-stop about how easy it is.

If you are really looking for recognition in a computer game, that is sad. Since your unhappy with wow, get a hobby, pick up a sport do well in that and get admired by others if you want. Do whatever it takes to make you happy, whatever gets you the most attention (seems to be what motivates you).

[superstargoddess]

having these scrubs think they were as good as me, because they had all the same gear was upsetting.

Wow... you actually care about that? Let people play the game, they pay as much as you do. Do you care in real life when some welfare looking person has a nice pair of shoes that cost $200 and you have the same shoes but you work at a good job?

[wadark]

Wow... you actually care about that? Let people play the game, they pay as much as you do. Do you care in real life when some welfare looking person has a nice pair of shoes that cost $200 and you have the same shoes but you work at a good job?

That's the same thing I was getting at before. Anything someone does should be done for their own satisfaction, not to get the envy and, by extension, the validation of other players. Especially since the people they are looking for validation from are the people they look down upon as "scrubs" or "bads".

[jpwkeeper]

I think you completely missed my point, and I think I know why.

Really? Let me see if I can recap. You stated:

A. Where raids should be: Calculus
B. Where they are right now: 1+1=? AND you get credit for getting it wrong, thus the mentally retarded are capable of success.
C. Ulduar is the current content.

Thus you have indirectly call anyone who is finding Ulduar a challenge is mentally retarded.
My group is having trouble with some of the earlier bosses in Ulduar, thus we must be mentally retarded via your equation.

So yes, I have both math and reading comprehension skills, both of which are much better than your people skills based on this particular sampling.