DKs AND RETs compared to WARS.. am i wrong to think this?

[Exeeter]

I’m probably going to post this in another forum to see what other people opinions are but ill say it here as well... and ill probably get flamed for doing so. but whatever....


I’ve been playing wow for about 130 days played time.. That equates to about 5 years now give or take - I had a lot of breaks- and feel that DKs are slightly overpowered sure. But my point here is to compare them exclusively on par with the other plate wearing classes in the game and how it’s all justified (or lack thereof)

3 plate DAMAGE dealer pvp classes in the game
DK-PAL-WAR

2 of these have a significant amount of nonphysical damage abilities that aren’t affected by armor
DK-PAL

In all honesty NO one can sit here and say that wars have as much burst damage as rest or dks.. It’s just not true... period. Im pretty sure that’s not up for debate, it can’t be.

Scourge strike for example has the potential to hit plate for near 7k im at 750 resil right now and it happened to me by a dk that had pvp gear on with some pve offset epics. IM struggling to find out what it is that gives them the right to deliver that much damage to plate while maintaining so much mitigation abilities and self healing (and a good amount of it too).

Ret pallies as well... a decent amount of there output is holy damage. as well, they an arsenal of tools to bring them back to full life I.E multiple lives while giving out great burst damage (I know 3.2 will be addressing this to an extent but still). Ret start out with full resource and c/ds ready to be used right off the top at the opening of a match.

I’m not saying nerf these 2 too the ground at all.. I wouldn’t expect that. However, the warrior is SHEAR physical seriously, at best our hardest hitting ability will hit plate for maybe 3.5 if we are lucky... giving us passive armor ignore for battle stance was a step in the right direction but aside from that.. Seeing how much DKs and rets can deliver in comparison while being able to provide themselves with replenishment just upsets me...

And this is coming from a perspective of a player that has abandoned arena since s3 (I earned my shoulders and wep at the time) arena is not a concrete system that can be implemented in a game with so many random factors. DKs in addition have cause each and every class to be put under an intense microscope of nerf/buff - reworking of classes that will inevitably not change... pre bc was fine cause bgs where simple pvp zerging.. And everyone had fun because the playing field was so open and accessible. That is why I cannot argue the value of warriors in arena as there are a lot in the highest of brackets. But in BGs, a form of pvp that believe it or not a lot of people prefer over arena and like to partake in, (this is why we will most likely hear about a new bg ranking system at this years blzzcon, like they have stated already) its openly evident of the superiority that DKs and RETs have over warriors..

As the tool tip says... Warriors are the masters of armed combat.. yet we fall flat in comparison to the other plate wearers or rouges for that matter.


/braces for the burning flame

[Tèmpést]

Not really, I have the same few problems about those 2 classes as well. I play a level 80 Retribution Paladin, retired from raiding as Protection, a 76 Blood Death Knight and 2 Arms Warrior twinks, a level 49 and 60 respectively.

On my Arms Warriors, I can take on any other class. All except Paladins and a select few Death Knights (In my 60 Warrior's case). I play my level 49 Warrior more often than my level 60, simply because Horde is not so hot in AV (matches are often 15 Horde to 40 Alliance). Paladins in the 49's have been able to hit me for really high amounts of damage, scoring criticals as much as 600 and 700 each and an amazing 1300 Hammer of Wrath to finish me off. My average Mortal Strike can hit a player for at least 1050 and Execute for about 2700 with full rage. On a Paladin, I can barely manage to critically hit it for 500 if I'm lucky, and Execute for 700 or maybe 600 if it's that bad at full rage. I can almost never take on a Paladin in a 1v1, even if they're crappily geared than I. The only ones I've been able to kill are Paladins with Lay on Hands and bubbles on cooldown.

My Paladin at 80 has about 670 Resilience and I get hit harder by a Death Knight or Paladin in PvP than a Warrior. I'm able to escape a Warrior, but a Death Knight or Paladin I have very little chance. I always end up having to fight them without an option to run, since you're pretty much dead while you're being snared 24/7 without Hand of Freedom and cooldowns.

Playing in a Warrior's perspective, I dislike my Paladin as I realize that a no-brainer Ret can take on a twinked out Warrior without much to lose. Death Knights are also a problem for my Warrior. I find it difficult to put a challenge when the skills granted to a Warrior are all part of the physical tree, while Paladins and Death Knights have access to 2-3 trees of damage, all which are barely mitigated with the exception of physical.

[Ershiin]

Yes Warriors are weak atm.
Tbh blame scaling.. It have always been scaling and always will be scaling.

[shags the penguin]

Tbh i agree with you! ;D

Ofc all the pallys + dks will come back and say omg you have MS that makes you fine. the problem is against a non healing class we dont have a chance and honestly against healing classes we dont have a chance, 3-3.5k MS on a holy pally doesn't do much tbh or a resto druid ( on mine i have more armour in tree than i have on my full pvp geared warrior, as for priests shield can absorb the whole MS without a problem.

[Swiftz]

yeah but, you have healing reduction, DK/ret don't... wow isn't 1v1...

[Simbert]

But Warriors have MS. They may have less Burst than the other Plate users, and they may have less survivability than DKs. But MS is insanely powerful in any situation where the target will get heals. However, this only really matters if you play arenas. In Bgs, chances are high that your target would not get healed anyway.

But this does not mean that MS is useless, just that your enemies are to stupid to heal. And in this case, if you are somehow organized and have a healer, you can 2v5 successful really often. What makes DKs and Rets in Bgs better than Warris is mostly the unorganized opponents. Well, and Deathgrip. Fighting where you want to as a melee is powerful. As soon as you have some geared and skilled opponents, yes, this sometimes happens in BGs, MS is worth gold.

[Piscesthepally]

You have Mortal Strike you retard. Why should you expect to be able to have as much burst as a DK and also be aloud a healing reduction skill? Warriors also get armor pen where as Paladins and Death Knights do not, which makes up for the fact that your only damage is physical. Maybe warrior is a bit weak right now, but to be honest I have not seen a large issue. If you could ask blizzard why warrior "burst" is lower, this would be the most common answer. You can't compare the damage of 3 different classes side by side and expect it to be the same, said classes are balanced around the other abilities they have besides just damage. This is a very immature argument, use your head a little bit.

[rabbimojo]

Honestly, MS -is- burst. It's the only damage in the game, as of 3.2, not affected by resilience.

MS is incidental damage that occurs when someone receives a healing effect. You don't think it's damage because it doesn't show up in your log, but it could work that way (IE, when the target takes a heal, the full heal goes through, but then MS procs and deals damage. Roughly the same).

Considering how well healers can heal these days, MS is amazing damage. Never forget it.

[Viscule]

from my lolret POV, I'd like to notice tha fact that so-called *decent* non-physical damage we deal is just of a few numbers - seal procs (proc is the key word) and please no words bout seal of blood , cuz it hits me aswell.
and judgements for ogm liek 2-4 k of damage.
consecrate? dont stay in it, lol.
righteous vengeance? who takes this talent for pvp?
whats more? aura? 170 damage maximum.
e4e? just forget bout it.
holy shock? pfft, used for healing a lot more often
exorcism? not usable in pvp due to blizz mastermind.

and bout full mana and cd's. whats with warriors cd's? arent they full at the beginning of the duel? and please tell me bout rage gain per hit mkay?)


oh, whats more. warriors hit plate like it was cloth due to armpen incomparable to any other melee dps.
f.e. im almost fully physical damager as you warriors are, but dont(and cant) equip for armpen.

diz iz ma 5 centszs

Wow, really? This BS made me chuckle. Ahh, you seriously need to reroll if you're a paladin.

Btw, warriors do not hit plate like it was cloth even with alot of ArP. Dont talk out of your ass, its the brains you need to use. I doubt you have one after reading your post tho.

[Vampyrr]

yeah but, you have healing reduction, DK/ret don't... wow isn't 1v1...

so you are saying warriors put up their mortal strike then step back and have to have someone else finish them off because of lack of burst?

[Viscule]

tits or gtfo


a bit of more constructed bs.
my main dps and damage sources are cs, melee swings, ds.
which are occasionally what?
umm.. physical attacks?
amirite?
oh shi~

Oh noes, 70% of your DPS is holy! 30% physical, holy shit. Thats alot of physical attacks. My god, i cant comprehend the huge amount of physical damage you deal! LIKE MY GOD!?

[Daelos]

Huh?

I think warriors are just fine atm, they do good damage and their reprensation is high in the top teams..

I am much more scared of warriors than retris atm in arenas

[Sand Person]

i concur with vamp

[dapper85]

so you are saying warriors put up their mortal strike then step back and have to have someone else finish them off because of lack of burst?

lol, your acting like warriors hit for 1k, they hit hard enough, and have the MS, in a bg without a healer i bet it can suck, cause warrs are easy to cc. i play resto sham and holy pala and would heal a geared warr over DK or Ret any day.

[Zepticon]

If you get bursted by a retridin, you are not in PvP gear. EOD.

I can see the point where a paly can ahve an edge on a warrior, true, i dont fear warriors in 1v1. But when you are on about qq, lets look at Ret vs "insert random raged class here"

Total fail. A ret have no chanse against a ranged class that know what he is up to (or a healer for that matter)

If warriors only have issues with rets, then theya re lucky.

[Strijder]

DKs and Rets can go use every cd they have at the start because they dont need to hit the target 1st to get rage like warriors do.

Warriors cant have a MS effect up the whole time, rage starved or target is to far away.

[Tèmpést]

from my lolret POV, I'd like to notice tha fact that so-called *decent* non-physical damage we deal is just of a few numbers - seal procs (proc is the key word) and please no words bout seal of blood , cuz it hits me aswell.
and judgements for ogm liek 2-4 k of damage.
consecrate? dont stay in it, lol.
righteous vengeance? who takes this talent for pvp?
whats more? aura? 170 damage maximum.
e4e? just forget bout it.
holy shock? pfft, used for healing a lot more often
exorcism? not usable in pvp due to blizz mastermind.

and bout full mana and cd's. whats with warriors cd's? arent they full at the beginning of the duel? and please tell me bout rage gain per hit mkay?)


oh, whats more. warriors hit plate like it was cloth due to armpen incomparable to any other melee dps.
f.e. im almost fully physical damager as you warriors are, but dont(and cant) equip for armpen.

diz iz ma 5 centszs

Seal of Blood - The damage recoil from this isn't too significant if you play a Ret Paladin. What, a 90 damage auto-attack recoil and a 1000 Judgment recoil is going to kill you? Lol. Sorry, but the damage that you can deal with Seal of Blood is still unmitigated, and thus does a lot of damage. You 'can' heal yourself with a Flash of Light when you got Art of War up anyways.

Consecrate - Generally, people that know what AoEs to avoid will avoid them, given you don't press that Hammer of Justice cooldown now will they? Oh, chances are if they don't get out of the stun, their trinket is on cooldown. So you're stuck and eating the AoE for a good 6-7 seconds, right?

Righteous Vengeance - Um, this is the battlegrounds forum isn't it? I assure you, 75% of the Rets in those BGs will have picked up this talent :. There's this thing called PvE Rets you know. Oh and this still counts as Holy damage.

Retribution Aura - This aura still scales with gear, even if it's ridiculously low. The damage racks up as long as a target is damaging you. Oh, it's still damage.

Eye for an Eye - Sure, not much damage, but if the target is critting you over and over, the damage overall from this talent goes up.

Holy Shock - It's still damage regardless if it's used for healing most of the time.

You really don't understand about Armor Penetration do you? A Warrior may have high ArP, let's say, 50%. If you have about 18000 armor which might say 52%, it's reduced to 9000 which could be 38%. You're not taking 50% more damage from a Warrior with insane ArP, but it's less than what you'd expect. For this example, you're only taking 14% extra physical damage.

FYI you're a Paladin, and at least half of your damage is from Holy damage. You should know this, and you play one. At 80 for that matter (which is sad). You fail to recognize such elements of the Paladin mechanics.

[Mantra01]

Huh?

I think warriors are just fine atm, they do good damage and their reprensation is high in the top teams..

I am much more scared of warriors than retris atm in arenas

if by high u mean the 6th out of 10 classes then yes they are high represented...

neways i dont think warrior dmg is a problem as much as their survivability as compared to the other plate classes is

[shiftynou]

Oh noes, 70% of your DPS is holy! 30% physical, holy shit. Thats alot of physical attacks. My god, i cant comprehend the huge amount of physical damage you deal! LIKE MY GOD!?

It's more like 60/40 in pve. Nobody specs for RV (in pvp) nor do they use consecrate for the purpose of doing damage in pvp. Exorcism doesn't work in pvp either right now. I'd say it's somewhere around 60/40 in favor of physical in pvp.

[Tèmpést]

It's more like 60/40 in pve. Nobody specs for RV nor do they use consecrate for the purpose of doing damage in pvp. Exorcism doesn't work in pvp either right now. I'd say it's somewhere around 60/40 in favor of physical in pvp.

Nobody specs for RV or use Consecrate in PvP? I sure do, because it's still damage. Sure the target can get out of it... chances are they won't. Can't eliminate that as a possibility. And no, it's more 70/30 in PvE. You gain access to more Holy damage spells when fighting a non-player target. Also forgot to mention Hammer of Wrath? That shit still does good damage when you can use it to finish someone off.