Over-itemizing ArPen for Ret?

[Handsylton]

Just looking over the loot tables from the 5-man, 10-man and 25-man fights so far, it seems to me that almost every piece of DPS plate has quite a bit of ArPen on it. I would assume this is Blizzard thinking that ArPen is going to jump above haste as a useful stat for us, which it simply isn't going to.

So far the best piece of gear I've seen drop on the loot tables are the pants from the 25-man TotC, Leggings of Ascension. Other than that, the itemization of gear has looked pretty poor for paladins in my eyes.

[Ruach]

...or it's meant to be used by warriors and death knights.

[Handsylton]

...or it's meant to be used by warriors and death knights.

valid point

[CragB]

Just looking over the loot tables from the 5-man, 10-man and 25-man fights so far, it seems to me that almost every piece of DPS plate has quite a bit of ArPen on it. I would assume this is Blizzard thinking that ArPen is going to jump above haste as a useful stat for us, which it simply isn't going to.

So far the best piece of gear I've seen drop on the loot tables are the pants from the 25-man TotC, Leggings of Ascension. Other than that, the itemization of gear has looked pretty poor for paladins in my eyes.

Actually it is.. and sadly STR has moved back to king, even over hit/expo cap.. I actully dislike how our gear stats end up now.. but whatever..

This is from redcape, over at EJ, who also does one of the paly spreadsheets i think.

Hit rating.......168 (34)
Strength........186
Exp rating......101
Crit rating........84
Agility.............79
Armor Pen.......73
Attack Power....73
Haste rating....67

As you can see.. haste is pretty much in the crapper now.. and STR has pulled into king of all stats*used to be HIt cap>exp/str>haste>ARP.
Haste dropping is pretty obvious... it only effects auto+ seal hits, and the seal hits do less dmg now, but now we have a dot, that scales strongly off str, and once stacked, can't fully miss, so hit also goes down a bit to because of that.

[iktankniet]

the 5m loot is worse then ulduar loot. not even worth mentioning that.

2 bosses has been tested and ppl are already QQ'ing about the drops.

please, do continue. im laughing at you now

[Ronark]

Actually it is.. and sadly STR has moved back to king, even over hit/expo cap.. I actully dislike how our gear stats end up now.. but whatever..

This is from redcape, over at EJ, who also does one of the paly spreadsheets i think.

Hit rating.......168 (34)
Strength........186
Exp rating......101
Crit rating........84
Agility.............79
Armor Pen.......73
Attack Power....73
Haste rating....67

As you can see.. haste is pretty much in the crapper now.. and STR has pulled into king of all stats*used to be HIt cap>exp/str>haste>ARP.
Haste dropping is pretty obvious... it only effects auto+ seal hits, and the seal hits do less dmg now, but now we have a dot, that scales strongly off str, and once stacked, can't fully miss, so hit also goes down a bit to because of that.

Its not because the seal hits do less damage that ArP is high, but rather the fact that we are using CS MUCH more, which benefits more from ArP than Haste.

[CragB]

Its not because the seal hits do less damage that ArP is high, but rather the fact that we are using CS MUCH more, which benefits more from ArP than Haste.

ARP honestly didn't go up much in value, but haste went down.. STR went up a ton cause the dot component now. Its more then one factor to effect any of these values.

[Ronark]

ARP honestly didn't go up much in value, but haste went down.. STR went up a ton cause the dot component now. Its more then one factor to effect any of these values.

Oh yes there are main factors contributing to the downranking of Haste, but having CS as a 4 second cooldown doesn't favor favor haste.

[azurrei]

It's obvious that ArP is becoming more and more a stat that blizzard loves to put on plate gear. The fact that ArP is really only good for warriors and blood dk's is frustrating for specs that have more "spell" dmg vs melee. It would be nice if blizzard could somehow make ArP more useful to those class specs - or have equiv gear stacked with more str in the item budget. Wars and Blood Dk's could have a choice of stacking more str or ArP, and those other specs wouldn't have to stack an inferior stat due to a lack of choices. Obviously, making ArP more useful would be the easier and preferred method of balancing it out - perhaps adding a talent deep in the respective trees that would give like a ArP to Str or AP bonus. For example, "you gain 3/7/10 attack power per 20 armor penetration rating" or "you gain 1/3/5 strength per 20 armor penetration rating."

[Ronark]

It's obvious that ArP is becoming more and more a stat that blizzard loves to put on plate gear. The fact that ArP is really only good for warriors and blood dk's is frustrating for specs that have more "spell" dmg vs melee. It would be nice if blizzard could somehow make ArP more useful to those class specs - or have equiv gear stacked with more str in the item budget. Wars and Blood Dk's could have a choice of stacking more str or ArP, and those other specs wouldn't have to stack an inferior stat due to a lack of choices. Obviously, making ArP more useful would be the easier and preferred method of balancing it out - perhaps adding a talent deep in the respective trees that would give like a ArP to Str or AP bonus. For example, "you gain 3/7/10 attack power per 20 armor penetration rating" or "you gain 1/3/5 strength per 20 armor penetration rating."

Nah.

A better idea is to merge the Penetration stats like they did with Spell Hit/Crit and Melee Hit/Crit, or make each point of Armor Pen increase your spell damage, where 20% ArP is like and extra 2% Spell damage, or whatever.

[Handsylton]

The change to CS as well as ArPen getting buffed facilitates the itemization. Now that I think about it, it only makes sense, as a straight buff to CS = straight buff to physical damage = straight increase in value of ArPen. This actually makes sense as to why haste lost so much value. ArPen and Strength recieving more itemization points means that haste has to go down in value, because the benefits from other stats increase.

All in all, it's not a poor change, as ArPen will become a better stat for us in gerenal, just a little different, as now itemizing will look more like Str > Hit > Exp > Crit > ArPen >< Haste. This isn't exact, but this will probably be the likely change in priority. Also, very surprised at how much hit is on the newly released gear as well.

Nah.

A better idea is to merge the Penetration stats like they did with Spell Hit/Crit and Melee Hit/Crit, or make each point of Armor Pen increase your spell damage, where 20% ArP is like and extra 2% Spell damage, or whatever.

^This

[azurrei]

The change to CS as well as ArPen getting buffed facilitates the itemization. Now that I think about it, it only makes sense, as a straight buff to CS = straight buff to physical damage = straight increase in value of ArPen. This actually makes sense as to why haste lost so much value. ArPen and Strength recieving more itemization points means that haste has to go down in value, because the benefits from other stats increase.

All in all, it's not a poor change, as ArPen will become a better stat for us in gerenal, just a little different, as now itemizing will look more like Str > Hit > Exp > Crit > ArPen >< Haste. This isn't exact, but this will probably be the likely change in priority. Also, very surprised at how much hit is on the newly released gear as well.

^This

hmmm, except CS dmg was also nerfed to compensate - its little more than pushing a button more often...willing to bet if martyr still existed the "buff" would be extremely small but its hidden in with the the SoV/Cor ret's have to use now

Nah.

A better idea is to merge the Penetration stats like they did with Spell Hit/Crit and Melee Hit/Crit, or make each point of Armor Pen increase your spell damage, where 20% ArP is like and extra 2% Spell damage, or whatever.

that would make sense...although if they simply merged penetration that would be more like spell pen which is um, pretty terrible in PvE (sure it would be ok in PvP to a point...)

[Ronark]

hmmm, except CS dmg was also nerfed to compensate - its little more than pushing a button more often...willing to bet if martyr still existed the "buff" would be extremely small but its hidden in with the the SoV/Cor ret's have to use now

that would make sense...although if they simply merged penetration that would be more like spell pen which is um, pretty terrible in PvE (sure it would be ok in PvP to a point...)

CS was buffed in PvE, assuming you hit it every time its up you gain an extra 1/4 a CS.

Also, you would be hitting CS more, so that ArP adds more to 15 times of that seperate attack over a 1 minute timephrase, than it would if you only hit the ability 10 times in a minute.
Also, SoVeng proc > SotM seal hit once 5 stacked.

If they merged the 2 penetration stats, it would need to be buffed for PvE for all Magic-classes.... in general, a Physical Class with ArP would see no change, and a Magic Class would deal a bit more Spell Damage as well as its current effects.

[Handsylton]

hmmm, except CS dmg was also nerfed to compensate - its little more than pushing a button more often...willing to bet if martyr still existed the "buff" would be extremely small but its hidden in with the the SoV/Cor ret's have to use now

It's an extra 2.5% MW/s buff to CS.

Old = 135% MW/6 sec = 22.5% MW/s
New = 100% MW/4 sec = 25% MW/s

So a 2.5% MW damage buff for CS. What this really means for ArPen? It's a slight buff, but this isn't the change that makes ArPen better than haste. The change that moves this is the DoT effect of SoV being effected by Strength, which makes Strength even better. This change coupled with ArPen's buff through CS moves itemization points away from Haste in exchange for Strength and ArPen getting more itemization points.

I do like Ronark's idea about ArPen becoming a physical/spell damage component. Making X% ArPen = 1/X% spell damage would make ArPen more enticing for pallys, and if Blizzard is going to start itemizing plate melee dps gear with more ArPen, it should probably be taken into consideration to spice it up a little.

[Ronark]

It's an extra 2.5% MW/s buff to CS.

Old = 135% MW/6 sec = 22.5% MW/s
New = 100% MW/4 sec = 25% MW/s

So a 2.5% MW damage buff for CS. What this really means for ArPen? It's a slight buff, but this isn't the change that makes ArPen better than haste. The change that moves this is the DoT effect of SoV being effected by Strength, which makes Strength even better. This change coupled with ArPen's buff through CS moves itemization points away from Haste in exchange for Strength and ArPen getting more itemization points.

I do like Ronark's idea about ArPen becoming a physical/spell damage component. Making X% ArPen = 1/X% spell damage would make ArPen more enticing for pallys, and if Blizzard is going to start itemizing plate melee dps gear with more ArPen, it should probably be taken into consideration to spice it up a little.

Your scaling is reverse, it should be X% ArP = X/10 extra Spell Damage, or in other words, every percent X in ArP is a 1/10% in Spell damage, or something similar.

[Handsylton]

Your scaling is reverse, it should be X% ArP = X/10 extra Spell Damage, or in other words, every percent X in ArP is a 1/10% in Spell damage, or something similar.

True that, good sir. With 20% ArPen and my formula, you'd gain .05% spell damage : good buff huh? lol

[Ronark]

True that, good sir. With 20% ArPen and my formula, you'd gain .05% spell damage : good buff huh? lol

You'd gain LESS SP with MORE ArP XDDD

[Handsylton]

You'd gain LESS SP with MORE ArP XDDD

Well I never said it was a HUGE buff :P

[Grimbold]

So we're to assume Haste goes down in the ladder and ArP takes it place. Personaly, and math aside, ArP wont make a difference, because if its taking Haste's previous position, then it still wont matter to me cause i didnt bother about haste nor will i bother about ArP now :P.

Oh well STR and CRIT ftw (?)

[Handsylton]

So we're to assume Haste goes down in the ladder and ArP takes it place. Personaly, and math aside, ArP wont make a difference, because if its taking Haste's previous position, then it still wont matter to me cause i didnt bother about haste nor will i bother about ArP now :P.

Oh well STR and CRIT ftw (?)

It's not like we're going to be going out of our way to grab ArPen. It's going to be the same thing as haste used to be. It comes on our gear, okay cool, it does a little bit, but we are now Strength whores... AGAIN.

Strength > Hit > Exp > Crit > ArPen > Haste.

Hit is going to be ridiculously easy to cap, there is an utterly ridiculous amount of hit on the new gear being released, and it seems like all the best Strength gear is going to be stuffed with +Hit, +Crit and +ArPen. Basically, just get the best Strength gear, period :P