The good and the bad about Wotlk

[veemon_ro]

The good

-The quests were alot more beter then TBC or Vanilla. You would get 5-10 quests in the same areea at a time making it easyer to level up.

-The in game cinematic, the battle at wrath gate was simply jaw droping

-The Dk starting zone was awesome

-The storyline is nice up to ulduar

The bad

-No proper progresion path. A new player that joins the game isn't supposed to do heroics, then nax, then ulduar, then coloseum, and can simply do coloseum 10 man and then 25. Nax was supposed to be the school of raiding, yet people can skip school.
Also judging from the PTR and the first boss, colloseum doesn't look like a step up from ulduar.

-Very bad 5 mans and heroics. The gear they drop as well as the gear you can get from the faction rewards and the badges, is not needed to complete nax. The reason this is bad is because it doesn't let people do much outside of raids. Runing heroics with some friends in TBC used to be quite fun, now you can't do it anymore.

-Showering players with gear. Since you can pretty much pug raids, you get voa, 25 mans and 10 mans every where and bosses drop around 3-4 epics as well as a lot of badges, geting gear is quite easy.
Normaly this would look like fun and appear like a good thing, how ever, once you get all the gear you need and have all the items, it takes a very fun part out of the game. Doing ulduar every week and farming all the bosses while you have every single item, is not as fun as when you know you have upgrades. This also allows for raids to zerg down bosses and outgear them really fast.

-Blizzard forgot how to make hard bosses that are fun.

Most hard bosses in wotlk, especially hard modes. are mostly hard because they hit extremly hard, usualy hiting for more hp then the tank has.
This encourages raid stacking as most guilds would get a dk tank and alot of paladins (hand of sacrifice) and priests (guardian spirit) to make these fights easyer.
Its also bad because its just not as fun. A hard boss should be hard because it requires complicated tactics and every one to play perfectly (lady vashj, kaelthas, swp bosses) and it shouldn't be just hard because of the damage he does and the healing required.

-Removal of atunments.

While I do understand that some atunments were annoying and should of been removed (onyxia, tempest keep pre nerf, karazhan).
The last atunment blizzard made was actually quite fun (entrance to black temple). The reason it was fun was the amount of lore it gave and the fact that akuma kills you at one point and then resurects you.
And what else is more epic then fighting shoulder to shoulder with maiev shadowsong to gain entrance in black temple?!
The reason this atunment was nice is because it gave people something to do outside raids wich is something that is lacking at the moment in wotlk.

-Removal of good craftable items

Again something else you could of done outside of raids was crafting items such as belt of blasting, or bop's for your own professions. While it was a bit of a yawn, it did make a a player feel proud of himself while looking at the overpowering belt he created for himself.

-Bring the player not the class.

While I agree the ideea is nice, it should of been implemented diferently. The reason its bad at the moment is because good guilds that do hard modes, still stack classes.
Its also quite annoying due to the fact that people don't feel like they're contributing to the raid that much.

The way it should of been done how ever would of been to remove bosses that require a certain class to down them (ros's deaden, ilidan's sheer, leotheras's demon form etc) as well as make blood lust the way it is now.
Making debuff's and raid buffs raid wide isn't the best way.

[Unondel]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owzhYNcd4OM

lol

[Elkey]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owzhYNcd4OM

ROFL

[Hips]

You do know some of the craftable drops in Ulduar are best in slot? So one of your points is completely moot. I'm sure more of your points are wrong but that's the only one I read.

[TheMediator]

Nax was supposed to be the school of raiding, yet people can skip school.

Eh, I don't know, Coliseum seems more like raid school to me. No trash just bosses, the bosses are relatively simple but teach you mechanics you need to know. Everyone should be trained up both gear wise and skill wise to be ready for Icecrown.

[Hips]

The good

-The quests were alot more beter then TBC or Vanilla. You would get 5-10 quests in the same areea at a time making it easyer to level up.

-The in game cinematic, the battle at wrath gate was simply jaw droping

-The Dk starting zone was awesome

-The storyline is nice up to ulduar

The bad

Neat?

-No proper progresion path. A new player that joins the game isn't supposed to do heroics, then nax, then ulduar, then coloseum, and can simply do coloseum 10 man and then 25. Nax was supposed to be the school of raiding, yet people can skip school.
Also judging from the PTR and the first boss, colloseum doesn't look like a step up from ulduar.

I'd love to see how someone fresh 80 without any heroic upgrades does in Ulduar. (FYI, they'd die to simple AOE damage, and probably get booted from the raid for doing sub 1500 DPS.

-Very bad 5 mans and heroics. The gear they drop as well as the gear you can get from the faction rewards and the badges, is not needed to complete nax. The reason this is bad is because it doesn't let people do much outside of raids. Runing heroics with some friends in TBC used to be quite fun, now you can't do it anymore.

You can run heroics all you want? Heroics are a good source of cash, through orbs, dream shards and abyss crystals. You can also turn in Badges for Blue/Epic quality gems, which is another source of cash. You can turn in Badges for PvP gear, and you can turn in badges for Heirloom gear for leveling alts.

Blizzard may not have focused on the gear from heroics but there is still plenty reason to run them. Your point on this is moot.

-Showering players with gear. Since you can pretty much pug raids, you get voa, 25 mans and 10 mans every where and bosses drop around 3-4 epics as well as a lot of badges, geting gear is quite easy.
Normaly this would look like fun and appear like a good thing, how ever, once you get all the gear you need and have all the items, it takes a very fun part out of the game. Doing ulduar every week and farming all the bosses while you have every single item, is not as fun as when you know you have upgrades. This also allows for raids to zerg down bosses and outgear them really fast.

Did you not raid in BC? Bosses still drop the same amount of loot. People have always been showered with gear. Kara/ZA/Tier 5 Content was all puggable, minus Kael or Vashj (Sometimes you could even pug those two depending on how well your group was.)

And zerging bosses has always happened in WoW as people progress through tiers. It's a natural part of game progression. Old content is old so why would it matter? Another hollow rant.

-Blizzard forgot how to make hard bosses that are fun.

Most hard bosses in wotlk, especially hard modes. are mostly hard because they hit extremly hard, usualy hiting for more hp then the tank has.
This encourages raid stacking as most guilds would get a dk tank and alot of paladins (hand of sacrifice) and priests (guardian spirit) to make these fights easyer.
Its also bad because its just not as fun. A hard boss should be hard because it requires complicated tactics and every one to play perfectly (lady vashj, kaelthas, swp bosses) and it shouldn't be just hard because of the damage he does and the healing required.

While I agree on this somewhat, you're wrong in the fact that the bosses don't take real tactics. I'd like to see some random guild run in to a hardmode without a game plan and do well. And you didn't have to play perfectly to get Vashj down :P.

-Removal of atunments.

While I do understand that some atunments were annoying and should of been removed (onyxia, tempest keep pre nerf, karazhan).
The last atunment blizzard made was actually quite fun (entrance to black temple). The reason it was fun was the amount of lore it gave and the fact that akuma kills you at one point and then resurects you.
And what else is more epic then fighting shoulder to shoulder with maiev shadowsong to gain entrance in black temple?!
The reason this atunment was nice is because it gave people something to do outside raids wich is something that is lacking at the moment in wotlk.

Attunements being removed was inevitable for the release of Wrath. It lets new players go back and see the content they weren't around for. And not everyone plays the game for the lore, so why should they have to complete a series of quests that they won't understand? Attunements had to be removed if Blizzard wanted a larger database because in all honesty, attunements are just annoying quest chains that can hold guilds back (I remember every other new recruit my guild would get in BC would have to attune the player so we could resume raiding.)

Oh, and if you're going to bring up a point about the lore atleast spell Akama's name right :P.

-Removal of good craftable items

Again something else you could of done outside of raids was crafting items such as belt of blasting, or bop's for your own professions. While it was a bit of a yawn, it did make a a player feel proud of himself while looking at the overpowering belt he created for himself.

Some of the Ulduar patterns are best in slot, do some research next time.

-Bring the player not the class.

While I agree the ideea is nice, it should of been implemented diferently. The reason its bad at the moment is because good guilds that do hard modes, still stack classes.
Its also quite annoying due to the fact that people don't feel like they're contributing to the raid that much.

The way it should of been done how ever would of been to remove bosses that require a certain class to down them (ros's deaden, ilidan's sheer, leotheras's demon form etc) as well as make blood lust the way it is now.
Making debuff's and raid buffs raid wide isn't the best way.

Making buffs raid wide IS the way to make class stacking stop.. Because then you don't need to bring 5 paladins to get Frost resistance aura in all 5 groups. Did you even THINK before typing that?

What classes do they stack? You don't NEED to stack classes to get hardmodes down.

[sah303136]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owzhYNcd4OM

this sums up your post quite nice;y =D .... btw you forgot dks in your bad area

[level1alt]

What classes do they stack? You don't NEED to stack classes to get hardmodes down.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?topic=72925.0

We take 5 warlocks with us, actually this number is less than what we thought to be.

[Firegod1385]

Its less than they thought, and if you've checked the other "world first" kills, or other kills of him after that. You'll note that they all dont bring 5 warlocks. They stack up a LITTLE bit on classes, but its not like in the old days where the more locks you brought to a raid the better. (because they all worked off each other so much). Or getting a shadow priest in the healers group so they could keep their mana flow going.

Or shamans for chaining bloodlust.



And, just for the record. Noting ONE... ----ONE---- hardmode where a guild stacked doesnt mean you *NEED* to do that for ALL hard modes.

The way they handled the buffs was the correct way. The listed examples (illidans shear) was only applicable to warrior /pally tanks, yes. HOWEVER, thats JUST the tank, thats exluding one person, you dont "stack" for that, excluding other dpsers cause they wont do as good.

Not to mention, if you have the ability TO stack, then blizzard has 2 options.
1.) Tune the fight to having that retarded setup, thus making it hard as hell for everyone who doesnt.
OR
2.) Tune the fight so to NOT having that setup, thus making it stupid easy for those who DO have that raid comp.

Some people really have to think about things before they say them :/

[maharei]

Nax was supposed to be the school of raiding, yet people can skip school.

...and wipe on eyebeams instead of thaddius

[Advent]

First of all, I think you skipped school. Should of? What the hell is that? It's "Should have". Back to school, kiddo. I agree with the good, but the bad of Wotlk that you listed has so many flaws I think you really should have gone back and re-read them for clarity. I don't need to go over each of them, because Hips already did, but please... stop making posts like these. It's silly.

[Gron]

Veemon... good post - its nice to see some thoughts put into it.

Advent... you're a noob... Veemon ofcourse was not born in the US or UK - so no need to be so overly clever about his English language skills. Kiddo is you, and its even more true showing you have not played WOW for long enough to understand Blizzard has 3 options after WOTLK:

1, Bring back enough content - like in BC - to make game fun. Will result in less QQ.
2, Add more difficulty levels to make bad players, good casual players and more hardcore players happy (yes that is 3 difficulty levels).
3, Leave everything as is in WOTLK and suffer the ever decreasing subscriber numbers.

Veemon is right about many points, you're all just Blizzard fanboys with tinted glassess.

[Separate]

You know I gotta put my 2 cents in here. Your an idiot for posting this. I cant even count how many threads like this have been made complaining about how blizzard lays things out even though your STILL leveling characters, its like you completely contradict yourself. For instance people that are like man fuck the new ToC and the 25 man it sucks its to easy. But guess what you know you log on and raid that shit like theres no fucking tomorrow. So Stop making threads like this please, your still going to log on and level your characters and play the game stop complaining!

[haaku]

First of all, I think you skipped school. Should of? What the hell is that? It's "Should have". Back to school, kiddo. I agree with the good, but the bad of Wotlk that you listed has so many flaws I think you really should have gone back and re-read them for clarity. I don't need to go over each of them, because Hips already did, but please... stop making posts like these. It's silly.

please behave, i understood everything he said, even though it was alot of mistakes. if you want to tell him that his language is hardly understandable please do it in a more friendly way. There's no need offend him.
And i also think this is ok a topic. we're in a wow forum you know, nothing wrong with discussing the "new" expansion.

yea, and i also think wotlk is the best thing that have happend to wow.

[Amaterasu65]

Pros +

Nice area graphics. Take for example areas with beautiful landscape such as Howling Fjord, Grizzly Hills etc. Also all of the areas have their own characteristics. I can't say that TBC lacked on area graphics, because I loved Outland too.

Better quests, including quests involving vehicles, flying etc. The quests are much more fun from TBC and I would say much more easier. The 2man quests are mostly soloable from 1 player and gold farming is easier.

More items. Blizzard has shown more items with nice graphics and really tempting.

Cons -

New Hero Class: Death Knight. Good way to make money but the disappointment after this is unforgetable. They really spoiled the game but I can't say Death Knights wouldn't be a good characteristic as the whole expansion is about Arthas, being a Death Knight.

As mentioned, removal of attunements, begining from TBC. I think attunements are necessery so the players that deserve it should see the specific raid content. But that would't be beneficial for Blizzard, because no players no $$.

Lack of creative encounters. The 5man dungeons are aweful, except for Oculus, which has some creativity and attractiveness in it. The raid dungeons' encounters lack a lot of creativity, something Vanilla and TBC didn't lack of. For example, all Hyjal, BT, SwP encounters were just epic. I'd wish I stayed on that time of WoW.

Santa Blizz giving away free epics for everyone. I know, I know....More QQ, but is the aweful truth. I wouldn't have any problem by just making it a bit easier to take the epics. It's not about the 3.2 badges thing, it was all over from the start. Easy peasy Naxxy, full nuke, take epics. I could say that in TBC, when Karazhan started, everyone was struggling to take down Horseman's trash.

Hard modes Hard Modes isn't a nice way to correct the mistake they did with the easy encounters. Even the top guilds don't even consider it hard as they farmed them in 3days or so.

Neutral _

Level Cap increased. Don't care. Every expansion has its level increase in order to promote new quests over the lore of the expansion, new ares and new bosses.

Introducing new professions. Everything that increases the value of an item is good.

[Deleted]

Pros +

Nice area graphics. Take for example areas with beautiful landscape such as Howling Fjord, Grizzly Hills etc. Also all of the areas have their own characteristics. I can't say that TBC lacked on area graphics, because I loved Outland too.

Better quests, including quests involving vehicles, flying etc. The quests are much more fun from TBC and I would say much more easier. The 2man quests are mostly soloable from 1 player and gold farming is easier.

More items. Blizzard has shown more items with nice graphics and really tempting.

Cons -

New Hero Class: Death Knight. Good way to make money but the disappointment after this is unforgetable. They really spoiled the game but I can't say Death Knights wouldn't be a good characteristic as the whole expansion is about Arthas, being a Death Knight.

As mentioned, removal of attunements, begining from TBC. I think attunements are necessery so the players that deserve it should see the specific raid content. But that would't be beneficial for Blizzard, because no players no $$.

Lack of creative encounters. The 5man dungeons are aweful, except for Oculus, which has some creativity and attractiveness in it. The raid dungeons' encounters lack a lot of creativity, something Vanilla and TBC didn't lack of. For example, all Hyjal, BT, SwP encounters were just epic. I'd wish I stayed on that time of WoW.

Santa Blizz giving away free epics for everyone. I know, I know....More QQ, but is the aweful truth. I wouldn't have any problem by just making it a bit easier to take the epics. It's not about the 3.2 badges thing, it was all over from the start. Easy peasy Naxxy, full nuke, take epics. I could say that in TBC, when Karazhan started, everyone was struggling to take down Horseman's trash.

Hard modes Hard Modes isn't a nice way to correct the mistake they did with the easy encounters. Even the top guilds don't even consider it hard as they farmed them in 3days or so.

Neutral _

Level Cap increased. Don't care. Every expansion has its level increase in order to promote new quests over the lore of the expansion, new ares and new bosses.

Introducing new professions. Everything that increases the value of an item is good.

pretty much this, but the one thing about items that immediately surprised me in wotlk(maybe it just was coincedence) is that when leveling, a lot of gearpieces you go through all look the same, dont know if its just me but ive got the feeling that gear given from quests in tbc had more variety than in wotlk

[Pheonixis]

One bad thing about wotlk is the need, or rather lack of need for resistance gear. Sure, you might've used a piece of frost resistance gear for Sapphiron, and the tank might still use full frost set when doing Hodir, but these were easily farmable because you find the eternals needed everywhere. Not nearly as annoying as BC, when you needed two resistance-capped tanked just to do the first boss in SSC, one with nature and one with frost. This wasn't any easy gear to get either. First you had to be exalted with some factions, and then you had to grind for very long to get the needed mats. And even this pales in comparison to vanilla where to do Ragnaros, the whole raid had to have fire resistance gear, and potions.

[Sigmundus]

pretty much this, but the one thing about items that immediately surprised me in wotlk(maybe it just was coincedence) is that when leveling, a lot of gearpieces you go through all look the same, dont know if its just me but ive got the feeling that gear given from quests in tbc had more variety than in wotlk

You do realise that Blizz stated at the very beginning of wotlk that they did the gear thing intentionally as people complained about how much of a mish-mash they used to look in tbc?

[Vy]

Hard modes Hard Modes isn't a nice way to correct the mistake they did with the easy encounters. Even the top guilds don't even consider it hard as they farmed them in 3days or so.

and that's why 4-5 guilds in the world have downed Yogg +0
You's jus ignant

[Callsign Grunge]

and that's why 4-5 guilds in the world have downed Yogg +0
You's jus ignant

It's actually 15 guilds.

Who's the ignorant one.