I don't understand shadowflame.

[Ofmanv]

Ask yourself this: "What was the purpose of shadowflame before it had a glyph" or "In what situation would I cast this unglyphed"

Maybe you're thinking, I use shadowflame for uber AoE damage! Um.. no. There is simply no reason to cast shadowflame over rain of fire/seed of corruption. As a source of damage shadowflame is just a joke. I don't want to dwell on the damage too much though. If I could fix shadowflame, I actually wouldn't make it do more damage. Warlocks aren't supposed to run up to melee for optimal damage.

The spell absolutely has no purpose unglyphed. I know a lot of people dismiss this saying, it has the glyph of shadowflame now, it doesn't matter.

That doesn't do it for me. Are you seriously telling me when WoTLK first came out Blizzard's plan for this spell all along was to have no purpose for the first 6 months of WoTLK and then they would bandage it with a glyph to turn it into cone of cold?

Any reasonable person would probably doubt that Blizzard PLANNED for this spell to have no purpose for 6 entire months.

Just having a glyph bandage the fact that a spell is useless baseline doesn't solve the problem. Glyphs are a feature of CUSTOMIZATION. When you start making spells only useful when glyphed they are no longer CHOICE but MANDATORY. Why have more than 3 glyphs if you're just going to make mandatory glyphs?

As a PvP'ing destro lock I already have enough mandatory glyphs with glyph of immolate, conflag and soul link. Shadowflame remains useless to me and I never cast it. I don't even bother with a key bind for it.

It just irks me. Blizzard is usually very reasonable. Every class got only 2 or 3 new spells in WoTLK. In warlock's case, we got 2. With such a small number of new abilities you'd think Blizzard would put some thought into them and actually give them a purpose.

What makes it worse is with the glyph shadowflame is basically cone of cold. Don't get tiki with me with the whole "lulz its diffrunt it slows 4 20% moar". It's ridiculously similar to cone of cold. I thought Blizzard actually agreed with warlocks for once that warlocks and mages have been homogenized enough.

Warlocks are a class in dire need of ACTIVE defenses. Shadowflame seems like such an obvious ability to tweak to simultaneously give this useless spell a purpose and give warlocks some defense. It could have a pushback, it could lower attack speed/attack power, it could disarm, it could disorient.

Locks only got 2 new spells in WoTLK. I don't think its so much to ask that both have a purpose (teleport works for me). It doesn't have to be great, just something. Give me a reason to give shadowflame a keybind.

Any input on what you guys think could be done to shadowflame to make it have a purpose would be great.

[gherkin]

Shadowflame is an instant way to apply conflag, which dazes, has a high crit rate, and grants +damage.

It's Curse of Exhaustion (the daze part) for Destruction. Just because it doesn't work as well as expected doesn't mean it's broken.

[Fubar23]

while i agree that it deserves a buff, to say that's its useless isn't true. I dont use it every time its up of course but i have on occasion used it, when i do its usually cause everything else is on cool down though and i need something to finish off melee right on top of me. The problem with buffing it considerably is that a lot of people do like the glyph, and i would imagine any useful buff to it would prob negate or make the glyph pointless(wouldn't bother me though).

what i hate most about it though is that half the time i do use i end up missing =/

[Ofmanv]

Shadowflame is an instant way to apply conflag, which dazes, has a high crit rate, and grants +damage.

It's Curse of Exhaustion (the daze part) for Destruction. Just because it doesn't work as well as expected doesn't mean it's broken.

Shadowflame is a HUGE WASTE of conflag. The daze and the glyph make it completely redundant. It has no special crit bonus. It has no such +damage effect.

[Ofmanv]

while i agree that it deserves a buff, to say that's its useless isn't true. I dont use it every time its up of course but i have on occasion used it, when i do its usually cause everything else is on cool down though and i need something to finish off melee right on top of me. The problem with buffing it considerably is that a lot of people do like the glyph, and i would imagine any useful buff to it would prob negate or make the glyph pointless(wouldn't bother me though).

what i hate most about it though is that half the time i do use i end up missing =/

Shadowflame just isn't a viable solution for its damage. Especially not on a single target.

You're practically damaging yourself because you'll have to lifetap more health away to get the mana back than the damage you do on a single target. Hell, I'd just bust out my wand before I use shadowflame on a single target.


From a design philosophy standpoint, The spell should have its purpose baseline and the glyph should be there for added flavor. Tweak the spell as needed and nerf the glyph accordingly.

[gherkin]

nono, stop thinking like a player.

From a design point of view, destruction suffers from no snare and thus no way to make distance. So as a designer, what could you do with the tools at hand to make destruction work better?

Easier, weaker hitting, conflag. Ta da.

Proof that it didn't work as planned is seen in the glyph. Why apply the snare glyph to shadowflame instead of something like Shadowburn or Chaos bolt? Because shadowflame was the snare to begin with.

I'm not saying its a great spell or that its fine, I'm just showing you its intent by blizzard. If you can't understand them, you can't win an argument claiming it fails. All they have to think is "lol they're using it wrong".

[Ofmanv]

nono, stop thinking like a player.

From a design point of view, destruction suffers from no snare and thus no way to make distance. So as a designer, what could you do with the tools at hand to make destruction work better?

Easier, weaker hitting, conflag. Ta da.

Proof that it didn't work as planned is seen in the glyph. Why apply the snare glyph to shadowflame instead of something like Shadowburn or Chaos bolt? Because shadowflame was the snare to begin with.

I'm not saying its a great spell or that its fine, I'm just showing you its intent by blizzard. If you can't understand them, you can't win an argument claiming it fails. All they have to think is "lol they're using it wrong".

This a good, helpful response Gherkin. I know we're at odds in opinions a lot, but I do appreciate that we have intelligent discussion coming from it. I'm glad you're thinking from a design philosphy point of view with me.

I doubt though that being a snare was shadowflame's original intent. Aftermath wasn't a 100% chance to snare with conflag until patch 3.1 hit. It was just an RNG effect when wotlk first hit. Even most PvP destro locks didn't care for the talent.

You could reasonably argue that it was just there for proc'ing conflag damage, but shadowflame doesn't even make conflag do respectable damage anymore.

By that line of thought, one would suggest glyph of shadowflame was made and shadowflame's baseline purpose was removed at the same time. But that goes back to my original concern about making mandatory glyphs for spells that don't have a use baseline.

In terms of design philosophy, why go through the trouble of making a baseline spell for something that's designed only for destruction? To make it a baseline spell, there must have been some intention for all specs to use it.

I know you can point at spells like lava burst. Ya, that was baseline and its basically only for ele shamans. But when Blizzard made new baseline spells for just 1 spec they were designed to become one of the bread and butter spells of the spec. Shadowflame being just for destruction would be a very narrow use for a narrow selection of spec'd players of warlocks.

[gherkin]

It's a narrow use for pvp, but it was fun for affliction leveling. Round up 3-5 mobs and shadowflame usually pushed them over the edge without needing anything more than instant dots.

I'd rank it up there as one of the worst WOTLK baseline spells, but its not entirely useless imo.

And disagreement without hostility is the kind of thing I enjoy. Thanks for not resorting to comments about my mother

[Ragnarokex]

(this thread will forever be known as the one that made me sign up..lol)

Demonic Teleport is amazing. It sets apart the good pvp/arena players from the rest. Learn to use this spell and your troubles disappear (nerf lordaeron arena ftl..)

As for shadowflame, yes it might have seemed useless and made us more mage-like at the start, but the glyph for it makes it really good. Think, a rogue using fan of knives with crippling poison on.

But if you use it properly, its really good anti-rogue/melee. kk so he ambush you then kidney shot or w/e, you trinket then move back or keyboard turn so hes in front of you then shadowflame -> conflag. he'll probly cloak/vanish at this point.. then you teleport and live a second time.

The 70% slow along with and instant conflag application make the glyph worth it and usable.
I just tested it as well, you can have shadowflame and unstable affliction up at the same time..

[TerryBogard]

Demonic teleport is great, still needs to be invisible to enemies, but still a well needed ability for all lock specs.

Shadowflame with the glyph is useful but solely in PvP. It may have practical uses for leveling as gherkin said but I only got the skill with the xpac to lvl 80 where it has zero functionality for endgame raiding. I do agree that needing a glyph to make it useful shows an inherent flaw in its original design.

Why wouldnt it stack with Unstable Affliction? They are two separate abilities and should stack like any other DoT.



P.S. Gherkin, I love your mom. She cuts the crust off my PB&J sammiches

[Bromdor]

Demonic teleport is great, still needs to be invisible to enemies, but still a well needed ability for all lock specs.

Shadowflame with the glyph is useful but solely in PvP. It may have practical uses for leveling as gherkin said but I only got the skill with the xpac to lvl 80 where it has zero functionality for endgame raiding. I do agree that needing a glyph to make it useful shows an inherent flaw in its original design.

Why wouldnt it stack with Unstable Affliction? They are two separate abilities and should stack like any other DoT.



P.S. Gherkin, I love your mom. She cuts the crust off my PB&J sammiches

Well i think he was refering to the fact that we cant use ua and immo together anymore, and that because shadowflame is in a way similar to immo (in that its a dot consumed by conflage) there could of been a possibility of it not working. And thanks though i never thought about using a SF with a afflic pvp spec, instant caste on the run... I also agree that i would love Teleport to be invis to other players.

[Teneal]

Well... it... looks pretty? Kinda?

[gherkin]

P.S. Gherkin, I love your mom. She cuts the crust off my PB&J sammiches

I lol'd. True story.

[Gnorllock]

It's for breaking rogues out of stealth or a last instant cast while teleport is on GCD...

[Skrumpcious]

it's my Shadowburn for melee as affliction, since i dont have any instant cast finishers, if someone is in my face, i'll cast and i win.. its not useless, but its not the most useful.. still usable

[Ofmanv]

This thread is basically devolving into "It doesn't matter, glyph of shadowflame is the awesome" which pretty much means you didn't read the original post.

If you have to talk about the glyph to explain why you'd use shadowflame then you're admitting the glyph is mandatory and the spell is useless without it. Glyphs were put into the game for a feeling of customization, not for there to be another mandatory element of the game. Otherwise, why make more than 3 glyphs for each class?

The only decent responses have been from Gherkin and maybe the one about using it as a last ditch finisher. However, shadowflame is simply an inferior source of damage. It is inferior to SoC and RoF as a source of AoE. If it isn't good AoE damage then it is obviously even worse if you're trying to do single target damage with an AoE spell.

I seriously bust out my wand for instant single target damage before I shadowflame. You're practically doing damage to yourself by using shadowflame on a single target, you'll have to lifetap the mana back.

[wannabetroll]

lolshadowflame without glyph

[DeanyKong]

Free snare!

[gherkin]

I use it as a "I'm doing something specific in PVE, but hey look free damage! /shadowflame" on fights such as Thorim or Mimiron. My job is "Kill X" or "Help with Y" and thus all the little z's will feel my wrath! Seed of Corruption is only mana efficient in a 5 mob+ environment and rain of fire requires 3 seconds of channel time. Shadowflame + Single Target means I help my peers and do my job just as quickly.

With the wider cone, I've had some luck doing a quick pivot when I think a rogue is creeping up on me and shadowflaming them out of stealth. However I play on a below average server with bad rogues :P

[Ofmanv]

I use it as a "I'm doing something specific in PVE, but hey look free damage! /shadowflame" on fights such as Thorim or Mimiron. My job is "Kill X" or "Help with Y" and thus all the little z's will feel my wrath! Seed of Corruption is only mana efficient in a 5 mob+ environment and rain of fire requires 3 seconds of channel time. Shadowflame + Single Target means I help my peers and do my job just as quickly.

With the wider cone, I've had some luck doing a quick pivot when I think a rogue is creeping up on me and shadowflaming them out of stealth. However I play on a below average server with bad rogues :P

What do you mean "free damage"? On a damage to mana ratio shadowflame is a much less efficient spell to seed of corruption. It also uses a global cooldown if you mean free in terms of time.