Just starting 10-man Hard Modes

[KandyCane]

My guild just managed to kill Yogg-Saron after two nights of raiding. As everything else was cleared, we decided to try out the Trial of the Crusader while waiting for the reset.

Anyway, we're not really interested in that place as of yet, just using it as a last resort when there's not enough time left for anything in Ulduar, so we're going to be trying out Hard Modes as soon as possible.

Now, my question is, which one do you guys think we should try out as the first? The raid composition is:

1 Protection Warrior
1 Protection Paladin
\___ About equally geared with 40-41k health fully buffed
3 Melee dps(often an Arms and Fury warrior, and a Feral Druid or Unholy Death Knight for the third spot)
2 Caster dps(Most often a Mage and Elemental Shaman)
1 Discipline Priest
1 Restoration Shaman
1 Restoration Druid

Personally I think that Flame Leviathan sounds as the easiest of them, as it can be done with any set-up. We've also never had any troubles with Freya's normal mode, so I was thinking we should try that after Steelbreaker, perhaps?

It's a very casual guild, with a maximum of two raids of 3-4 hours each á week.

Dps is usually between 3-5k

Any tips are appreciated, as long as it doesn't involve recruiting better classes. Thanks in advance

[Psychedelicious]

We've just started hardmodes and XT-002 was really easy. You guys seem to have the dps for it. Thorim and FL should be pretty easy too. Consider going with two healers though.

[necemoci]

Personally I think that Flame Leviathan sounds as the easiest of them, as it can be done with any set-up. We've also never had any troubles with Freya's normal mode, so I was thinking we should try that after Steelbreaker, perhaps?

I must (dis)agree,he just sound easy after being pugged every week with 0 towers.XT is far easier then 4T up.Even Thorim hard mode on 10 man is picnic compared to that one.

Tip that wont be appreciated: rogues kinda top Ulduar dps

[KandyCane]

rogues kinda top Ulduar dps

Any reason for this? I'd think that Feral Druids did more damage than Rogues, as long as no AoE is needed, but I'm probably mistaken.

We do have a rogue available for 1/5 raids as well, but he might not be the best of players

[Omgwtfbbq]

Thorim is very easy as in hardmode, so is XT.
You shouldnt have much problems with iron council also.
Make sure 1 of your dps got good dps offspec and know how to play it :P it will be required for some fights to drop a healer and take a dps (ie. hodir)

[necemoci]

Any reason for this? I'd think that Feral Druids did more damage than Rogues, as long as no AoE is needed, but I'm probably mistaken.

We do have a rogue available for 1/5 raids as well, but he might not be the best of players

Tott at fight start>+500 dps difference between your rogue and feral.

If,ofc,your rogue have any clue what needs to be done and is not lvl79blues/hatefull geared

Anyway if you cleared Ulduar without rogue...Clear hardmodes without rogue

If there is no big gap between gear level of your raiders,rogue should top dps on most boss fights and overall dmg hands down
(skill is not being debated)

[KandyCane]

Tott at fight start>+500 dps difference between your rogue and feral.

If,ofc,your rogue have any clue what needs to be done and is not lvl79blues/hatefull geared

Anyway if you cleared Ulduar without rogue...Clear hardmodes without rogue

Ah, of course Completely forgot about Tricks of the Trade(Hardly ever seen our Rogue use it though, so I guess it's not a huge dps increase for us)

But I do appreciate the tips.

Make sure 1 of your healers got good dps offspec and know how to play it :P it will be required for some fights to drop a healer and take a dps (ie. hodir)

Yeah, this might be a problem... We killed Yogg-Saron with three healers, and a back-up healer as dps(pulled 2k dps with all the buffs from that fight.) So Hodir might have to wait a bit untill we get some better dps gear for the healers.

We've just started hardmodes and XT-002 was really easy. Thorim and FL should be pretty easy too.

We'll probably start out with an attempt on XT's Hard Mode, and then Steelbreaker afterwards if succesful.

Thank you guys for the advices, I'll be off for tonight and check back in tomorrow

[karosene_2]

FL+4 is more about coordination then anything in my experience, if your WHOLE group understands the mechanics and what they should be doing its not bad at all. You didnt mention your overall gear level either as high ilevel gear makes this fight quite a bit easier. But FL aside I'd suggest trying in this order

1. XT(relatively easy on 10man if your dps isn't bad)-- 2 heal this have one of your others offspec.
2. Hodir(same as above)
3. Thorim(same as above) both of these two tend to favor ranged a bit, but if your dps is good neither is that hard in 10man
4. Freya (not too bad on 10man if dps is good, though it requires a bit more coordination then the previous, recommend 3 healing here)
5. Steelbreaker(Healing/DPS intensive, we had a hard time personally cause our 10man had no brez or lock. But even with it, mana become an issue the longer the fight lasts, so I have to rank this one up in difficulty.)
6. Vezax (gimmick specs make it a joke in 10 man if people can avoid getting shadow crashed, i'd also suggest 3 healers here)
7. Mimiron (HUGE step up, requires all of the above and excellent execution also 3 healed is how I've seen it done in my experience though I've heard of it being two healed if your healers are really good)
8. Yogg+1 (About comparable prolly a little easier than Mim, but IMO not worth wasting time on until you have Firefighter for your meta)

Also a side note, I suggest doing IC medium(runemaster last)early on so you can collect sigils from the watcher hardmodes, as this is really easy if you have a mage spec into frost for improved blizzard and other snare related talents.

Edit:Forgot about IC when writing it LoL

[Deleted]

Any reason for this? I'd think that Feral Druids did more damage than Rogues, as long as no AoE is needed, but I'm probably mistaken.

We do have a rogue available for 1/5 raids as well, but he might not be the best of players

Cleared all the hardmodes on 10 man without either a ferel or a rogue. Just destroyed the place.

Also Vezax 10 man hardmode is retardedly easy now that its been nerfed into the ground.

[KandyCane]

FL+4 is more about coordination then anything in my experience, if your WHOLE group understands the mechanics and what they should be doing its not bad at all. You didnt mention your overall gear level either as high ilevel gear makes this fight quite a bit easier. But FL aside I'd suggest trying in this order

None of us have got any gear from Ulduar-25, although everyone have replaced their chest and headpieces with tier 8.5, and other items from Conquest emblems as well.

The list you made is really nice though, but is it really easier with two healers on Thorim? I know he needs to be killed before the buff stacks too hard, but when we accidently started it some time ago, the overall AoE damage seemed quite high(Is it recommended to wear one frost resistance piece?)

Cleared all the hardmodes on 10 man without either a ferel or a rogue. Just destroyed the place.

Also Vezax 10 man hardmode is retardedly easy now that its been nerfed into the ground.

Well that's great to hear I was really afraid of Vezax' Hard Mode, as it took us quite a long time to get him down. I suppose it'd be better if the Paladin switched to an off-spec on this one though, seeing as mana regeneration from Divine Plea is removed for this fight, and the heals will be very limited(Actually had troubles on the kill too, with the tank running out of mana by the end of the fight.)

[herpecin]

back when my 10 man was starting hardmodes, this was easist to hardest for us:

1: yogg+1: stupid easy on 10 man, you have to try to mess this up.
2: hodir: again really easy if your DPS is half decent
3: thorim: a Spriest will make it easier but it not needed on 10 man
4: IC: flat out DPS race.
5: XT: DPS race with target switching
6: vezzax: make sure your healers dont overheal and its easy
note: all these 6 are very easy, the next 3 ramp up in difficulty.
7: freya: have all your DPS add /target strengthen to their main ability
8: FL: a much higher amount of coordination then all the others so far, either launch 1 or 2 people up which ever works for you
9: mimiron: alot goes on in this fight and be ready for many wipes when you try this one.

remember that all of these are about 1/3rd the difficulty of sarth3d back before ulduar came out

[Drunkenfinn]

Firefighter is the only real challenge out of the 10man hardmodes tbh.

Yogg+1 might seen hard at the beginning but once everyone gets the basics down its cake.

I'd rank em in this order:
1. XT
2. Thorim
3. Hodir
4. FL4T
5. Steelbreaker
6. Vezax
7. Yogg+1
8. Freya
9. Mimiron

Oh, and dont have a Paladin tank on Vezax tbh. I guess you allready noticed why :P Also, Vezax might prove to be a bit harder for you guys since you kinda lack the not-DPS-breaking interupts. Well if you get ur DK in and either one of the warriors backing him up you shouldnt have that much of a problem.

[TheRabidDeer]

1) FL, XT and Hodir are all jokes. Take your pick, but you should be able to get them all relatively easily. We usually solo tanked these fights, so if one of the tanks has a dps offspec then go that route to make them easier. You can also probably 2 heal hodir using the druid and priest/shaman.
2) Thorim is pretty easy, but a tiny step up from the above three. The only thing that can really kill you is if you dont pay attention and get hit by lightning.
3) Council should be easy if your resto druid is decent at all, the last time I did it we 2 heal/1 tanked it, though you can make it easier with 3 heals and 2 tanks (have pally tank steelbreaker since he can dispel himself and he should have some hit to counter resists). The DPS shouldnt be an issue at all if you can do hodir.
4) Vezax is (from what I hear) a complete joke now, though I havent done it since the nerf. Do not use the paladin to tank as he will oom ridiculously fast.
5) Yogg + 1 is mostly about DPS, you have to get past P2 in 2 brain phases or its a wipe. Other than that, its also really easy in 10 man, again we usually 2 heal 1 tank this fight. Mimiron is definitely harder than this fight.
6) Freya is a lot about control, if you have smart DPS and decent heals it wont be a problem at all. Dont kill little plants too fast, kill the three together and be smart with mushroom use from big guy (ie: if they are still around after he dies and new adds come, dps them from under the shrooms). Can be solo tanked, but I would still recommend 3 heals.
7) Mimiron can be somewhat difficult, itll take a bit to get down. 3 heals, 1 tank is best, have your priest go holy if possible and assign somebody to have aggro on the head in P3 + P4 and have your druid keep that person fully hotted.

[Astyan]

We usually have only one heal for Hodir HM in 10-man (myself by the way, Discipline Priest). It burns your mana quite fast but the fight doesn't last long anyway. It must be harder for anything other than a Discipline Priest, though, since Mass Dispel and instant shields are really useful here.

[Biernot]

I have done a few hardmodes in Ulduar-10 so far. My experience:
(the given difficulties are relative numbers and don't actually mean, that 1/10 is piss easy, but that it is the easiest hardmode in ulduar)

Flame Leviathan +4 (Orbi-tuary): It sounds easy, but don't underestimate the difficulty ramp-up from +3 (especially if you do +3 without Tower of Life). The handling of the adds is way more complicated than in 25-man, because you just don't have enough dedicated people to take care of them. 6/10

Razorscale (Iron Dwarf, medium rare): not really a hardmode, just takes some coordination, time and wipes. 1/10

Ignis (stokin' the furnace): Either you have the dps or you don't. This is a pretty good gear check: If you can do it with 2 healers and 5 dps, then you should be able to handle the real hardmodes gear-wise. 1/10

XT (Heartbreaker): The fight is pretty long. If i read your raid composition correctly, you don't have replenishment. This is bad for this fight, because even with 3 healers and replenishment you can go OOM, if you don't outgear the fight. Other than that, from the real hardmodes (the ones that drop extra loot) this yould be the easiest. 2/10

Iron Council (I choose you, Steelbreaker): Way easier than in 25-man. Especially in p3, because you don't need cooldowns on your tank for Fusion Punch (at least before the first tank death). Even with 3 healers Steelbreaker should be dead before the second tank, so you can do it without soulstone or battlerez. 2/10

Kologarn (Disarmed): Easy. A little bit coordination and it is done. 1/10

Auriaya (Crazy Cat Lady): Same as Kologarn. 2/10

Hodir (I could say, this cache was rare): Same as Ignis. Either you have the dps or you don't. Do it with 2 Healers, one of them priest (Disc is golden because of Mass Dispel). 3/10

Thorim (Lose your illusion): While this is one of the easier hardmodes in 25-man, it can be challenging in 10-man. If you take 2 healers, you will have problems keeping up with incoming dmg; if you take 3 healers you risk your tank getting 1-shot later in the fight. 5/10

Freya (Knock, Knock, Knock on Wood): From the hardmodes i have tried/done until now, this is the hardest. Our biggest problem are the exploding lasher waves, which can easy lead to a random death. If you want to do +2 before you go for the hardmode, then i suggest you kill Brightleaf (so you still have Earthquake and Iron Roots to practise with. Brightleaf more or less only adds more damage to the fight, but no new elements). 9/10

Mimiron (Firefighter): I have not really tried it yet, but i would say this is the hardest one. 10/10

General Vezax (I love the smell of Saronite in the morning): Because of time constraints (by the time we reach him, our weekly raiding time is more less at the end), we couldn't really try him, but from what i can translate from normal mode, it shouldn't be that hard, especially after the recent nerf. Disc priest is golden here. 5/10
EDIT: We downed this hardmode now on the second honest try, and I have to say: easy, if the ranged people don't fuck up with shadow crashes. We had 3 healers and a lot of fuck ups with shadow crash, but it was still easy. now i would put the difficulty at 3-4/10

Yogg-Saron (One light in the darkness): Positioning & movement is everything. Because you will need Thorim in p3 to finish the adds, you will not have Freya for recharging Sanity. And a lot of otherwise decent players just can't get a hang of p2. (allover movement, get in place for portals, don't lose too much sanity or die in brain room, etc.). Yogg-Saron is the fight where you see, who is really good, and who is half brain-dead. 8/10


So, if you want to start on hardmodes, then i suggest the following:
1. Ignis as gear check.
2. XT
3. Iron Council
4. Hodir
5. Thorim

If you want to, you can do Kologarn and Auriaya on the way, but as they don't drop extra loot, it is kinda pointless, unless you are going for Glory of the Ulduar Raider.

[TheRabidDeer]

Flame Leviathan +4 (Orbi-tuary): It sounds easy, but don't underestimate the difficulty ramp-up from +3 (especially if you do +3 without Tower of Life). The handling of the adds is way more complicated than in 25-man, because you just don't have enough dedicated people to take care of them. 6/10

The adds are actually really easy in 10 man, just kite them over lit pools of tar and all of the little guys should die almost instantly.

[Bainz]

I'll explain the ones Biernot didn't experience.

Freya +3 : Raiders have to be aware, Priorities are a must, focus a raider, attack the exploding lashers he does, and try not to blow everyone up. If there is a Ground Tremor in coming, avoid killing any. Co-ordination is a must.
There are a few macros:
/tar Eonar's Gift
/tar Strengthened Iron Roots

Use them.


Vezax Hardmode: Really easy, at least it was for us. Interupts have to be good and the range on the Shadow Crashes must avoid them. Have your disc priest out with the other ranged, using bubbles and what-not in Shadow Crashes. We almost one shot it without realising we were going to do hardmode.

Firefighter: Most difficult in 10man Achievements, it may take several hours of wipes before you get past the first 3 phases and then they should be pretty clean.
Avoid stupid deaths, situational awareness is key while still pulling decent DPS.

Yogg 1: Very RNG. Lots of cleanses and that going around. Try 2 heal it and have the melee DPS attempt to get the brain down in 2 attempts and then phase 3 is easy.

[Biernot]

Yogg 1: Very RNG. Lots of cleanses and that going around. Try 2 heal it and have the melee DPS attempt to get the brain down in 2 attempts and then phase 3 is easy.

QFT.
Yogg-Saron is not a very healing intensive boss. If you would need a 3rd healer, you are doing something wrong. I also helps immensely, if you have one shaman per group for p2 to put down cleansing totem. A great healer combo is shaman + disc priest (in p3, be aware, that penance turns you to your target).

[ilialilov]

well Xt and and Hodir are both walk in the park. After that Thorim and IC are about the same difficulty. FL and Freya take a few more tries. Mimiron is HELL. Vezax we took down piss easy but our group is very caster heavy (and its nerfed to hell). Yogg we havent tried but i doubt it will be harder than firefighter or knock knock knock on wood. (talking about 1 light not the real hard mode)

[KandyCane]

Right, so I think it's been made clear that XT-002 and Hodir are the easiest ones, with Steelbreaker and Thorim right after. I'm a bit unsure whether or not Vezax is as easy as them with the nerf.

I really appreciate all of the comments guys, and I'd love a few more tips if anyone's got any(such as how to deal with different encounters etc), but I think I've got the order pretty clear by now