Becoming an OP heroic tank (Need exp. tanks input)

[Deleted]

Alright, so my mainspec is Retributiona and I also raid as ret. I have never played protection before, so im pretty clueless on tanking.

HOWEVER, since ive collected a ton of good offspec loot from ulduar, ive decided to spec prot and farm some heroics to gear my alts (runed orbs ftw).

Now I've read up on prot mechanics on elitistjerks, but most of the info applies to tanking 25 man raids and raidbosses in general. I just want to become the best 5-man tank I can be.

I figured that includes:

- Self sustainable manapool (dont wanna drink after every pull, and no raidbuffs)
- Doing decent damage (aoe damage)
- Being geared and specced to take loads of SMALL fast hits instead of huge infrequent ones
- Being able to carry even @%!@geared healers through heroics with ease.

Now how do I go about this task?

What spec and glyphs would you recommend? After looking up a few tanking glyphs these seems pretty nice for the purpose:

1) Glyph of divine plea (-3% damage seems very good)
2) Glyph of Hammer of the Righteous (Seems decent for multimob tanking, yea? or is this not necessary?)
3) Glyph of Salvation (having another cooldown to pop when things go rough. Since I will be outgearing most of the dps'ers, maybe threat wont be an issue while using this. Am I wrong? should I stay away from this?)

Any other you would recommend?

How do I gear and gem for this? I understand that most raiding paladins will stack stamina like crazy in all gemslots etc, but is this really efficient for heroics? Should I just stack items with block rating and block value? And gem for avoidance over stam?

And how important is +hit and +expertise cap for tanking heroics?

What about trinket? Should I use damage trinkets, or is there any particular trinkets that shine in heroics?

Which Libram is best for heroics? Consecration one? or Obstruction?

Any advice from experienced and knowledgable tanks appreciated!

Cheers

[Minarva]

Easy with the glyph of salvation at first...that glyph is a serious 25 man hardmode glyph - not needed at all for any 5 man.

Your mana should be fine for heroics, keep sanctuary on yourself and pull fast enough that Divine Plea is kept up.

Go go stamina anyway, stack it like crazy and block value will be your second stat to get (for 5 mans). Avoidance is nice, but never gem for it.

Glyphs should be SoV, DP and either HoTR or Judgement.

I AoE tank alot, and I have never needed the hotr glyph, but its OK if you want to do 5 mans - although to be honest there aren't that many > 3 pulls in heroics so I would reccomend judgement.

Hit/expertise are nice if you get them, but are not necessary.

Use tank trinkets, essence of gossamer and Black Heart are two excellent trinkets.

Also use the Obstruction libram, its Best in Slot for paladins right now.

Check me out at http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...Dawn&n=Minarva if you need some gear advice/spec.

[Chahir]

Quick answer:

go for 535 Defense and as much block value you can fit into your gear.
Go for Divine Plea, Hammer of Righteous and Judgement glyphs.
The libram for valortokens is the best you can get for quick heroics.

When your gear consists of mostly purplez, just doublepull everything.

Ignore hit and expertise, in heroics you won't miss enough for it to be an issue anyway. (This is mostly true for 25man as well sadly)

The heroism trinket is a nice starter. But heroics are really forgiving.

The standard 9-6-9 rotation you undoubtedly noticed on EJ is the best, period.

Check my (chahir, zenedar EU) armoryspec for a decent prot-talentbuild. It's obviously not the best protbuild for heroics, but it will get you started.

Also, don't be afraid to use Seal of Wisdom if you run low. You mostly wont with my spec and Blessing of sanc + Divine plea, but it's better to be full of mana, than oom with a cool seal.

Speaking of seals. Corruption/Vengeance. Period.

Hope it helps, gluck with awful pugs

[Deleted]

Awesome thanks for the fast replies!

Decided to go with this build:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...0&version=9901

About the ret talents:

- Took pursuit of justice for faster running. This talent seems really awesome for speed running heroics
- I took 2/2 vindication cause I figured it would have a large impact on mob damage, since im gonna be the only debuffer. Was this a smart choice?
- For damage, I took 3/3 Crusade (+6% damage) over conviction as it seemed like points better spent. Am I wrong and is the crit better (and thus go 5/5 conviction with 0 in crusade)?

A few other questions:

1) Since Shield Block seems to be the God stat for heroics, should I downgrade itemlevel to get it? say:
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37197 vs http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40722

or

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37186 vs http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40718

2) About trinkets... Since damage is going to be a large part of my job as well, would it be adviceable to use my Greatness card in one of my trinket slots? I seriously LOVE it as retribution, but maybe 2 tanking trinkets would be better? whats your take on this?

3) With my current items im likely to go quite a bit over the defense cap. Is that an issue, or do I still benefit somewhat from the extra defense for this not to be an issue?

4) Hit rating. Is being capped that important? Im currently rocking like 160 or so, is this fine, or should I gem hit in yellow sockets?

and Lastly:

5) Any items that are particularly awesome to have as Prot? Like a setbonus/trinket/armorpiece that is just really darn good that would up my performance a lot by itself?

Cheers I appreciate it

[Offhand]

2) About trinkets... Since damage is going to be a large part of my job as well, would it be adviceable to use my Greatness card in one of my trinket slots? I seriously LOVE it as retribution, but maybe 2 tanking trinkets would be better? whats your take on this?

Greatness is one of the best TPS/DPS trinkets for prot. Assuming you aren't crippling yourself elsewhere, run with it in heroics.

[lave]

although to be honest there aren't that many > 3 pulls in heroics so I would reccomend judgement.

??? wtf dude

HotR glyph is far superior to judgement glyph in heroics (you wont even judge on trash with decent dps in your group)

[kork123]

I dont think anyone mentioned it yet, but if you dont have mutch exp with tanking yet I would say that your personal awareness and ability to controle what happens in an instance is wery important.

I have tanked all the 5 man on HC before and I have now had a long break from WOW. As i now piced it up again the first thing i noticed was that i needed to get my head into tanking mode again.
Picking up all mobs from a pull
Camera moving to look for patroles
Making sure i hit my mobs
making sure i use my rotation correctly
Keeping an eye on that ranged dps in the back moving towards next group. (pug mainly)
And so on....

[Dexxia]

(you wont even judge on trash with decent dps in your group)

WTF.....Not Judging =Bad tank. its part of your 9-6-9 rotation. and also good for more TPS.

go for 535 Defense and as much block value you can fit into your gear.

Seriously??? I know mobs in Heroics don't Hit hard...but from the best of my knowledge and IMO its best to be 545 defense, 5 over cap so incase on Bosses that hit harder you wont be hit by a large crit, also to help against a crappy healer in the group. I have carried my fair share of noobs through Heroics and raids, and been left the last person alone on a boss only to down the boss on my own. 545 defense is safe and another, "OH CRAP" protection.


If you have problems with aggro, Salvation isn't your best friend.
Block over dodge now with the dodge reduction. but a healthy mix of both I would say. and for heroics I would stress more on HP and block. For raids I would say big stress on HP, block, and dodge. cause some bosses can 2 shot you in 3 seconds if not geared or have enough avoidance.

Here's my link. My build is a lot different than others, the LoH points are good for long fights in raids. and if you clear fast enough you can use it on the next boss if needed instead of waiting 20min.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...stwolf&n=Dexia

[Kyrstlol]

HotR glyph is far superior to judgement glyph in heroics (you wont even judge on trash with decent dps in your group)

Yeah most trash in heroics *is* 4mob pulls so lol at the glyph of judgement.
If you're using the Libram of Obstruction though, judge something off cooldown just to keep the block buff up.
so Glyphs

HotR : extra target... duh
DP : -3% damage and it should be pretty much always up if you chain pull like I do
Seal of Vengeance/Corruption : Expertise capped without trying.

You're right in that block is generally a better stat in heroics but its not necessary to gear for it. You should be making so much threat with the reworked vengeance and hotr right now threat is not an issue.
I find that just using hotr will keep pretty much anything glued to me no matter what since it stacks vengeance up all by itself, just judging and slamming alternate targets, barely ever use conc.
If things get rough just use bubblewall (Divine Protection). That plus you going under 35% health plus being block capped will equal a *massive* reduction in damage taken, easily long enough for you to fix the situation. Hell, if not, you'll cheat death anyway.
Your spec - drop 2 points between Conviction, Spiritual Attunement and Crusade and put them in Judgements of the Just. This affects bosses and trash and is a huge mitigation talent, as well as being supportive to mage dps (and possibly others) - other than that, its fine.
Best of luck

[Kyrstlol]

Seriously??? I know mobs in Heroics don't Hit hard...but from the best of my knowledge and IMO its best to be 545 defense, 5 over cap so incase on Bosses that hit harder you wont be hit by a large crit, also to help against a crappy healer in the group. I have carried my fair share of noobs through Heroics and raids, and been left the last person alone on a boss only to down the boss on my own. 545 defense is safe and another, "OH CRAP" protection.

Stop talking.
The cap for level 82 mobs (heroic bosses) is 535.
The cap for level 83 mobs (raid bosses) is 540.
You cannot be crit at these caps. Having 5 more points only increases you block/parry/miss/dodge by 5 def worth - dr. If you need avoidance then dodge is still usually a better stat.

[Palatrino]

Once you go prot, you're not going back... ;]

I recommend you throwing an eye at http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ - great info there.

A rule of thumb, so to say, for protadins is - Run out of mana - you're pulling too few. Run out of hp - you're pulling too many.

Since you say you have Ulduar gear you wont have any problem tanking at all once you learn it. I'd say stack much stamina, just to ease of any problems for any healer you go with. Just check that you have 540 def and you're good to go. Cause the rest mostly comes by itself. Hit isn't that important, its nice to have but don't gem for it tbh.



Glyphs, personally I enjoy these:

1. DP - 3% dmg red, is good, since you will be having DP up all the time.
2. HotR - 1 extra hit with HotR is really nice, your aim is to always have lots of mobs to not run oom and do it fast.
3. SoV/SoC - Expertise ftw.

Buffs, With the new changes of Sanctuary, go for it. Learn to love it.
Rightheous Fury - A "must"
SoC/SoV and SoW - If you have mana problems, which you might have at the beginning, I used to switch a lot between these two. Same with Judgements, switch between JoL and JoW. Running with SoW = never have to drink, but less dmg = less fun.
Figure out what works for you the best.


Specs,
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...&version=10192 - This is my current favourite atm.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...&version=10192 - Some like to have Devo, myself I always run with a resto druid so see no point in it, and I like retri aura more.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...&version=10192 - If you find yourself having big mana problems, try this. But as soon as you feel that you have a hang of it, switch to one of the one's above. Cause 5 points in Benediction is waste waste waste.

Rotations, test what soothes you the most. Some might say a 6969696 etc rotation is the best - most tps. But as long as you have the mobs on you, and no one is dead, its good anyways. : )

But, always keep Holy Shield up, and DP ofc.


Just some fast hints and tips. Not saying its the best, its what works for Me.

Welcome to the world of tankadins!

[lave]

WTF.....Not Judging =Bad tank. its part of your 9-6-9 rotation. and also good for more TPS.

yeah because heroics is all about 969 instead of just mashing a few high threat abilitys into mobgroups before dps is burning them down in seconds.. OH WAIT -.-

seriously get a clue.. its already hard to use 969 effectivly on 5 man bosses since they die so frickin fast.. this rotation is fine for raidbosses but telling me its mandatory for 5man heroictrash tells one thing: you sir are not experienced in tanking

oh and besides - picking JudgementGlyph when you wont even reach 5 stacks of vengeance (wich happens quite often in 5man) over HotR glyph that`ll make every second pull a nobrainer is full of fail

If you're using the Libram of Obstruction though, judge something off cooldown just to keep the block buff up.

i do that for the bosses, i dont for trash. using a global cooldown for an ability that deals next to no threat (lowstack vengeance) on a single target in a situation where my dps goes crazy with multitarget/aoe attacks sounds wasted to me =) i get your point tho. judgement seems to me like the ability that quickly looses its use when you outgear the content

for glyphs i`d pick
vengeance
hammer of the righteous
and ether Dark Pact or Consecration (with good gear the latter.. its by far the best glyph for heroics tps wise)

[Specops]

Stop talking.
The cap for level 82 mobs (heroic bosses) is 535.
The cap for level 83 mobs (raid bosses) is 540.
You cannot be crit at these caps. Having 5 more points only increases you block/parry/miss/dodge by 5 def worth - dr. If you need avoidance then dodge is still usually a better stat.

How about you stop talking? You apparently must not know tanking if you still have the mindset that defence has a cap. A cap means after a certain point, one stat will not do anything for you (e.g. hit/expertise) whereas defence will always give you dodge, parry, and miss. And thus far, it is impossible to hit a defence cap.

@lave: the 969 rotation is "hard to use effectively"? Are you joking? What the hell is complicated about hitting HotR/SotR in between judging, laying down consencration, and popping holy shield? If you can't keep a steady 969 rotation going, you're doing it wrong.

[Dexxia]

How about you stop talking? You apparently must not know tanking if you still have the mindset that defence has a cap. A cap means after a certain point, one stat will not do anything for you (e.g. hit/expertise) whereas defence will always give you dodge, parry, and miss. And thus far, it is impossible to hit a defence cap.

@lave: the 969 rotation is "hard to use effectively"? Are you joking? What the hell is complicated about hitting HotR/SotR in between judging, laying down consencration, and popping holy shield? If you can't keep a steady 969 rotation going, you're doing it wrong.

Amen

[Kyrstlol]

i do that for the bosses, i dont for trash. using a global cooldown for an ability that deals next to no threat (lowstack vengeance) on a single target in a situation where my dps goes crazy with multitarget/aoe attacks sounds wasted to me =) i get your point tho. judgement seems to me like the ability that quickly looses its use when you outgear the content

Yeah I dunno, i usually have a cooldown free for it, the usual trash pull consists of
AS > Judge the one AS missed while we all charge each other> HotR > HS > Conc(if the dps is *super* crazy) > HotR > examinefingernails > HS > twiddlethumbs > HotR > Deadmobs (I hope AS is back off cd).

Just my styles I guess lol

@ Specops
omgdefhasnocaps!? 540 means you won't be crit, the person I was directing that at seemed to think if a boss hits hard you need an extra 5 def so you don't get a large crit. Also you may note that I SAID def continues to give miss/parry/block/dodge, just that pure dodge is a more effective stat due to DR for most people in gear of a naxx25/Ulduar level. Jesus, learn to read before you jump down my throat.
Just for the sake of it, my most used tanking set carries 552 def.

[Blasfomy]

How about you stop talking? You apparently must not know tanking if you still have the mindset that defence has a cap. A cap means after a certain point, one stat will not do anything for you (e.g. hit/expertise) whereas defence will always give you dodge, parry, and miss. And thus far, it is impossible to hit a defence cap.

@lave: the 969 rotation is "hard to use effectively"? Are you joking? What the hell is complicated about hitting HotR/SotR in between judging, laying down consencration, and popping holy shield? If you can't keep a steady 969 rotation going, you're doing it wrong.

Sigh. When we say cap, we mean soft cap. Your only retarded if you gem even more defense once you hit the soft cap. Use your brain for a second and you will understand what he means. And the 969 rotation comment, Its not that its hard, its that things die so fucking fast (if your dps is decent) that you hardly even have to do more that the first 969 before everything is dead.

[Specops]

Blasfomy, you're saying something opposite of what lave said. If you're trying to back up lave, then explain how it's hard to effectively keep a 969 rotation? Why would it matter if mobs die fast? That doesn't impead on the rotatioin.

[Blasfomy]

Its already hard to use 969 effectivly on 5 man bosses since they die so frickin fast

And the 969 rotation comment, Its not that its hard, its that things die so fucking fast (if your dps is decent) that you hardly even have to do more that the first 969 before everything is dead.

[Specops]

Bravo, you know how to press the "quote" button. "mobs fuckin die fast" nice excuse you have there. Any effective tank will look at a mob's health and switch over to a different one if there are multiple mobs. If not, there's no reason to say it's hard to effectively keep a 969 rotation.

[Blasfomy]

you hardly even have to do more that the first 969 before everything is dead.