Why there might never be cc in heroics or raids again

[veemon_ro]

The reason i think there is no CC in wotlk and why i strongly belive there might not be any in the future, is not because the trash mobs are too easy, but mostly because all the classes have been buffed too much.
In tbc a tank was considered skilled if he could tank 3 mobs at the same time. The only exception was of course, the paladin who was the only "aoe" tank but that's another story.
There for when runing a heroic or a raid, it was important for the use of cc. The tank would try and build agro on 2-3 mobs, while everething else was cc'ed.
Now a days, any tank can hold agro on 5+ mobs and aoe tank them and at the same time be kept alive by the also buffed healers.
Also, you can notice that even a sunwell geared warlock would be 1 shoted in an instance such as shadow labs if he would get 1 hited by an elite mob. While in wotlk, he would probably be able to jump up and down next to the tank and go "Lol aggro, taunt!!!"

I honestly don't see how cc can ever be added back into the game unless they nerf back alot of classes or add new game mechanics.

And for those of you who say "Blah blah blah i never got in mgt cause i couldnt cc".

Well, most classes have been given cc abilities now. Shamans got hex, druids can cc indoors etc. And mgt was NOT the only instance available. Just because they messed up by making packs of 8 mobs, doesn't mean instances such as slave pens or shattered halls were not fun.

[jontaxe]

Dude, wut?

You said it yourself.

Last time they made CC required, heroics were completely unavailable to classes without CC. It sucked.

If they made CC required again, they would have to give everyone roughly equal CC or have the same thing happen again. So then what's the point?

It's dumb. It's lame. cast [target=focus] sheep does not make you leet. I'm glad your polymorph got you dibs on heroics back in early TBC, but the rest of the world thinks it's stupid.

[spkrb200]

Well, my main is a warrior and most of the time I couldn't get any heroic groups because I had no cc and we still don't. And before you say fear, fearing is one of the worst things you can do in an instance unless it's the last pack in a room. I'm all for harder raids and heroics, but I it wouldn't be fair to dps warriors who have no cc, unless you want to fear and wipe the group . Hell, I remember doing a guild heroic shattered halls run to get the urn to summon nightbane and I voluntarily left because they couldn't get passed that 6 pull without another cc and as soon as I left and got a mage in, they downed it easily. Was pretty gay I didn't get the urn for another couple of months, but I did eventually get it because we had 2 mages and a pally tank. So again, having to cc every pull when dps warrior can't, sucks .

[Yoinkski]

I actually agree with all of this

this is one of the contributing factors which are making me quit the game and search for a new one very shortly

everything is just so monumentally dumbed down now, this game isn't designed for casuals anymore, it's designed for genuine window lickers.

i sort of agree with the fact that alot of the population previously could not see end game content, but should the community of people that have been playing this game for a long, long time be punished? i don't think so, and frankly clearing a raid on faceroll mode only to go there and kill the exact same bosses only harder is imo punishment, the thrill of first kills is no longer there, the excitement at new bosses is no longer there, raiding in WOTLK is "enter instance, kill boss, clap briefly, next boss, kills boss, clap briefly" it's a joke.

making the game more oriented around casuals was a killer for many many people, and will continue to be until a proper solution is found imo.

don't get me wrong, everyone should have the chance to see and contribute to end game raiding, but at the expense of the more hardcore community? no.

i've no idea whatsoever how to fix it, and even if i did i'd be wasting my time thinking about it, but unless something drastically changes in Cata, then i think they'll be losing alot more in the few months after the expansion hits.

[Keyholder]

Strong point

I do remember doing TBC heroic's as my hunter . . Like the 1st trash pack after Ambassador Hellmaw (first boss) boss Shad Lab's

Id end up having to Chain-Trap one mob and kite a 2nd while the tank took the rest

Chain-Trapping not really posable anymore due to CD of 30 secs and trap existing for 30 sec's :'( (Trap's used to exist for 60 secs meaning you could wait for CD to be ready then pull)

I beleve this is same for alot of other "CC" method's that are now too weak to rely on anymore as AoE is used so much

Along with your point that tank's/healers are so buffed theres no chalenge anymore and even DPS able to take a good few hits off trash

Any noob can lvl Via BG's and have no skill at all then face-roll through 90% of Wrath content

I realy do wish Bliz would bring back harder content in both 5man Heroic's and raids and not just make boss's simply hit harder

[Tigercat]

I tanked 5+ mobs in vanilla, through TBC, to now, it's not something warrior tanks just recently got the ability to do if they're competant.

I also purposefully broke any CC I could in mgt to show jackasses that CC was not required there. It was useful early on in TBC when heroics were actually legitimate instead of the dumbed down shit Blizzard turned them into, but that's about it.

[Brodi]

While I am of mind that Crowd Control has no place in five mans, ten man raids should at least see it being convenient, and it should definitely hold a place in twenty-five mans. While five mans don't have the flexibility to require Crowd Control and not alienate certain classes, there's enough bodies around in raids to have some people on Crowd Control and still invite those who can't to straight up deal damage.

[fatalaeon]

Strong point

I do remember doing TBC heroic's as my hunter . . Like the 1st trash pack after Ambassador Hellmaw (first boss) boss Shad Lab's

Id end up having to Chain-Trap one mob and kite a 2nd while the tank took the rest

Chain-Trapping not really posable anymore due to CD of 30 secs and trap existing for 30 sec's :'( (Trap's used to exist for 60 secs meaning you could wait for CD to be ready then pull)

I beleve this is same for alot of other "CC" method's that are now too weak to rely on anymore as AoE is used so much

Along with your point that tank's/healers are so buffed theres no chalenge anymore and even DPS able to take a good few hits off trash

Any noob can lvl Via BG's and have no skill at all then face-roll through 90% of Wrath content

I realy do wish Bliz would bring back harder content in both 5man Heroic's and raids and not just make boss's simply hit harder

if you couldnt trap in tbc you were bad. i practiced at it for quite a while in heroics. i remember having to chain trap on moroes. it wasnt super hard but it was part of being a hunter. i never hear 'hunter trap square' any more.

[jontaxe]

While I am of mind that Crowd Control has no place in five mans, ten man raids should at least see it being convenient, and it should definitely hold a place in twenty-five mans. While five mans don't have the flexibility to require Crowd Control and not alienate certain classes, there's enough bodies around in raids to have some people on Crowd Control and still invite those who can't to straight up deal damage.

Your wish is my command! Vezax trash and the trash leading to Kolegarn/Iron Council will now behave exactly as you describe! In addition, Freya trash will now be changed to different mixes of humanoid/elemental so that various CC'ing classes can make it easier.

Anything else I can do for you?

[sZimm]

I actually thought that managing CC in TBC heroics and raids was quite fun and added an element of strategy that does not exist now - on the other hand, using AOE was too hazardous, and classes without the best CC were constantly ignored in LFG.

I'm fine with living in a WoW world where CC is for PvP and AOE is for PvE. Both playstyles are fun and rewarding.

[Mogrutana]

Your wish is my command! Vezax trash and the trash leading to Kolegarn/Iron Council will now behave exactly as you describe! In addition, Freya trash will now be changed to different mixes of humanoid/elemental so that various CC'ing classes can make it easier.

Anything else I can do for you?

Yes, make the molten giants before Ignis CC'able

[General Vezax]

Im pretty sure we CC'd mobs in ulduar before we overgeared it. I expect ICC to be the same.

[Elementium]

I tanked 5+ mobs in vanilla, through TBC, to now, it's not something warrior tanks just recently got the ability to do if they're competant.

I also purposefully broke any CC I could in mgt to show jackasses that CC was not required there. It was useful early on in TBC when heroics were actually legitimate instead of the dumbed down shit Blizzard turned them into, but that's about it.

I'd love to have heroics the way they were. I was a Holy Pally in BC and I almost went OOM each pull on trash in shattered halls heroic, with a decent tank too.

Damn ya know, we never wanted it to be easy we just wanted to be able too see bosses. 10 minutes of trash as opposed to half an hour is all we asked. Killing bosses today is nothing.. I remember we used to cheer when bosses went down now we just pass out loot and move on to the next pinata.

[Azyoulike]

I do sort of miss being called upon to maintain a set of gear for shackling the way I did in kara, but honestly I agree with the earlier posters. CC made heroics interesting but it imposed to big a limitation on groups and it made some classes undesirable for some of them, and other classes undesirable for all of them.

Letting it mostly die off in PvE was a good call.

[Ulfgard]

the game has changed, get over it

[darkwarrior42]

Dude, wut?

You said it yourself.

Last time they made CC required, heroics were completely unavailable to classes without CC. It sucked.

If they made CC required again, they would have to give everyone roughly equal CC or have the same thing happen again. So then what's the point?

It's dumb. It's lame. cast [target=focus] sheep does not make you leet. I'm glad your polymorph got you dibs on heroics back in early TBC, but the rest of the world thinks it's stupid.

Thank you for speaking for the rest of the world. Tell me, would you mind sharing with the forums my opinion on abortion, since you know everything?


"If they made CC required again, they would have to give everyone roughly equal CC".... so which DPS specs don't have a form of CC?

Rogue: Sap, Blind, Cheap Shot
Hunter: Traps
Death Knight: Chains of Ice, Various freezes if frost
Warrior: Stuns, Intimidating Shout
Mages: Polymorph, Frost Nova
Warlocks: Banish, Seduction, Fear
Priests: Mind Control, Shackle Undead, Psychic Scream
Shamans: Hex
Paladins: Hammer of Justice (not much, but it works temporarily), Repentence
Druids: Entangling Roots, Cyclone, Hibernate


The four classes that come up the worst are Shaman, Death Knight, Warrior, and Paladin... and Shaman and Paladin do about as well as a Rogue with Sap. Hex and Repentence have a CD, but Sap cannot be used in combat, so they're about on par in the grand scheme of things. That leaves only Warriors and Death Knights that couldn't bring a really good CC to the table.

So, which of those two classes do you play as your main?

And do you really think Death Knights and Warriors would stop getting invites because of this alone? Most heroics that used CC didn't insist on having all 3 DPS classes with CC, one or two did the job just fine.

And if maintaining CC isn't indicative of a player who is at least decent, whywere there so many groups that couldn't maintain even one CC? Also, I remember how few hunters were really skilled with keeping an enemy trapped, and I remember making good friends with the few that were.


I'm sure some will simply say that "the game is different" or whatnot, but are such people truly going to argue that it's more interesting to have a tank that can hold aggro while watching TV, a healer that can spam endless heals without paying attention, and dps that don't have to do anything but AoE while the group of mobs stands there and dies?

Edit: Posting first thing after waking up = typos >.>

[conscript]

You know what I miss about CC:

LFM Sunwell trash farming. Need 6 mages.
LFM Heroic SH. Need 3 Mages.


Being a non-CC Class in BC was a handicap only to be overcome by outgearing content. Now having CC is basically a PvP or PvP encounter(ToC) ability. It would be nice to find a happy medium, but until Hex has a lowered CD on my Shaman I never want to see it return to Heroics.

[kronpas]

Priests: Mind Control, Shackle Undead, Psychic Scream

Dear Mr.Know-it-all, since you obviously know a lot about all class including priest, and since I happen to play a priest myself, may I speak? I cant MC if I am a healer - nor can I dps, Shackle Undead only works on UD, and psychic Scream is a lesser form of Fear, which is actually the worst CC during trash pulls.


And we priest isnt even in your list of "worst classes with CC"

[Ulfgard]

Rogue: Sap, Blind, Cheap Shot
Hunter: Traps
Death Knight: Chains of Ice, Various freezes if frost
Warrior: Stuns, Intimidating Shout
Mages: Polymorph, Frost Nova
Warlocks: Banish, Seduction, Fear
Priests: Mind Control, Shackle Undead, Psychic Scream
Shamans: Hex
Paladins: Hammer of Justice (not much, but it works temporarily), Repentence
Druids: Entangling Roots, Cyclone, Hibernate

most of the CCs you posted arent really usable in PVE, take fear for instance, you dont have any control on where the feared target will go, with a very high possibility of pulling another trash group, as for MC, you are basically using one less dps if your shadow priest is doing it and priests healers cant do it at all or the gorup would have no heals. Cyclone only lasts for 6 sec, so the druid would have to constantly reapply it every 1-2 spellcasts or even worse, if its a feral druid he has to shift in and out of cat form to do it...

[RMJ]

One thing is sure, something has to happend, why else not just give us some big AOE button that says " Hit with your big fat face", Aoe is freaking boring and is killing the game, 99% of all stuff besides bosses are aoe now :S WTF are you doing Blizzard. Bring back hard mobs that require CC and give all classes some form of cc.

The kind of CC Dk and warrior bring to the table atm, because of the weak mobs in heroic, they could offtank a mob in dps gear, that is actully a form of CC as well.