New 11/0/60 Shadow PvE Spec?

[plspirit]

why not spec http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?prie...6,ywJOqR,10433 ?
no need to spec focused mind, and shadow affinity

i specced like this since they implemented imp dp, and i never had issues concearning mana, and this is clearly the maximum dps spec

multidotting is the only reason to go oom, and focused mind has absolutely no effect on multidotting, mind sear spam is 15% more expensive, but you almost always have a spirit tap proc while bombing

[Nezoia]

I too have to say that i've never experienced mana issues and I put a lot of effort into trying to get my priority/rotation as perfect as can be, which means i'm operating at maximum mana burn.

Are you still doing 10mans in 25man gear?

I just hate the bullshit about we can't go OOM. It's a cleary lie, everybody can burn their mana if they want to. The discussion about it's effective dps or not, is a totally different one.

[Worshaka]

I actually struggle more mana wise in 10man than I do in 25man... that's due to the fact I get very little buffs in my 10man raids and usually get close to a full compliment in 25man.

And sure I could go oom if I decided to spam Gheal or spam MS to hit 1 target but we're not talking about going out of your way to go oom, we're talking about how large your mana pool is compared to you doing the maximum possible dps for the encounter.

Multi-dot type encounters place the most strain but with Fiend on a 3min CD and dispersion now a 2min CD combined with my 23k mana pool, I seriously can't burn my mana to a point where I need to wand. If you use your fiend well (particularly just b4 a BL) and utilise dispersion I really can't see how you can run out of mana.

If you want to say that dispersion doesn't count because it's a dps loss, that is only true some of the time. There are plenty of encounters with down times where the mana is free, there are also occasions when you get stunned or something occurs where you can't dps anyways and this is a great time to use it.

Other than that I really don't understand how you can oom yourself unless you stop casting MB or whatever it is you do to conserve your mana. For me I can max burn and never really have to worry.

[Tolar]

First of all, having anything to help out your mana regen/Cost of spells is a Plus to your dps. You can sustain longer fights with your few mana regen cooldowns that you have.

Second, what is the Big deal with inner focus in a shadow priest? It's one cast of any spell that will have a higher chance to crit with no mana cost...honestly, not a big deal in my eyes.

Third, I'm still on the ropes about the whole Imp Vamp embrace thing. Using two points in a talent that mostly overheals doesn't seem to be a very smart choice to me.

I of course run your standard 13/0/58

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?prie...g,ywJOqR,10433

[plspirit]

Other than that I really don't understand how you can oom yourself unless you stop casting MB or whatever it is you do to conserve your mana. For me I can max burn and never really have to worry.

actually there is NOTHING ELSE than maximum burn, if you play like you should, you use mindblast on every cooldown and renw your dots without losing any dotticks (or as close to that as possible) rest is mindflaying, how would you be able to spend more mana?

1. spam dots before they run out -> plain shit
2. spam something else which doesnt increase your dps, like massdispel -> just stupid
3. dps 2 or 3 targets simultaneously whithout using mind sear, thats a valid situation, but its impossible to mind flay or blast more han one target at once, so its just dots that are casted more often, focused mind has absolutely no impact there

so why the hell should i go oom whitout doing sth wrong?

[Worshaka]

The point Nez was making was that if he was at Max Burn for long enough he goes oom. I personally have never experienced that, perhaps in a couple of 10man hard modes when I had very few buffs but even then 1 mana pot was enough to get me through. I've never got to the point of wanding which is my definition of oom.

I've done several attempts of 25man hard mode beasts now, which is a 9.5min encounter and the only way I could possibly oom myself is by casting my shadow fiend on a worm about to submerge which I obviously avoid.

I remember my mana pool was slightly stretched for Yogg, but even then, good use of fiend and dispersion solved the issue and my dps was always particularly competitive.

[talrob]

I remember my mana pool was slightly stretched for Yogg, but even then, good use of fiend and dispersion solved the issue and my dps was always particularly competitive.

If on yogg you aren't just behind the affliction warlocks you are doing something wrong but that's a rare fight for us.

[Worshaka]

My point being that I was burning my mana as fast as possible.

And again I don't agree our dps is so far behind as to be a liability. I'm in the top 5 for Beasts in 25man Heroic Collesium, admittadly the troll racial helps but i'm certainly not at the bottom of the list.

[Grath]

wow i like this thread.. i read every page so i might just say my 2 cents

this mana regen thing i read alot of ppl dissing other ppl when they say they dont go oom, im going to back the ppl up who 'dont go oom' because im one of them, anyways about speccing

my thoughts on speccing a dps spec (including glyphs) means 1 very important thing..... DPS
alot of ppl think st and ist is crap, ok, i believe u how it does bugger all mana regen compared to meditation, but still its a DPS increase so even if meditation gave me 2000% mana while casting i still would get st ist just for the extra spell power, if i had mana issues i would spec something instead of st ist, but for now im speccing for max dmg output cos im not running oom and hey, isnt that wat alot of dpsing is all about?

if ure smart u cant go oom, and that includes using disperse without losing dps

and yes multi dotting requires alot of mana i know, but if ure smart u can manage ure mana, so dont reply back with "omg this guy must be pro he dont oom on multidoting!!!!" sarcastic comments

[Worshaka]

wow i like this thread.. i read every page so i might just say my 2 cents

this mana regen thing i read alot of ppl dissing other ppl when they say they dont go oom, im going to back the ppl up who 'dont go oom' because im one of them, anyways about speccing

my thoughts on speccing a dps spec (including glyphs) means 1 very important thing..... DPS
alot of ppl think st and ist is crap, ok, i believe u how it does bugger all mana regen compared to meditation, but still its a DPS increase so even if meditation gave me 2000% mana while casting i still would get st ist just for the extra spell power, if i had mana issues i would spec something instead of st ist, but for now im speccing for max dmg output cos im not running oom and hey, isnt that wat alot of dpsing is all about?

if ure smart u cant go oom, and that includes using disperse without losing dps

and yes multi dotting requires alot of mana i know, but if ure smart u can manage ure mana, so dont reply back with "omg this guy must be pro he dont oom on multidoting!!!!" sarcastic comments

The point with ST and IST is that the dps component is so small as to basically = 0. With 600 buffed spirit (which I currently have) this talent yields 6 SP and considering its 5 talent points I really don't see the value. Spirit is slowly leaving gear and our base SP is constantly increasing, so the dps value in terms of proportion is getting worse.

So while you say it's a DPS increase, I challenge the fact that its not noticable and therefore a waste of 5 points.

[plspirit]

The point with ST and IST is that the dps component is so small as to basically = 0. With 600 buffed spirit (which I currently have) this talent yields 6 SP and considering its 5 talent points I really don't see the value. Spirit is slowly leaving gear and our base SP is constantly increasing, so the dps value in terms of proportion is getting worse.

So while you say it's a DPS increase, I challenge the fact that its not noticable and therefore a waste of 5 points.

2 of these 5 points make nowhere else sense, and for the other three you have to make one decision

do i want to have pvp stuff like psychic horror, do i want to have maximum manareg/efficiency, or do i want the maximum dps possible?

for mana, you can put them into focused mind or IST, for dps you take IST, now, honestly, where is focused mind necessary?
everyones speccing it, i ask why?
its crap, not necessary, take 5 dps through IST instead of ZERO whith focused mind

meditation is the KEY manareg talent, leaving meditation out and speccing focused mind and then complaining about going oom ist just stupidity

13 points in disc are set, no chance changing this, you have to choose between IST and FM, meditation is not an option, its a must
i mentioned it above, taking ALL dps talents reachable, contains putting 14 points in disc and 57 in shadow, leaving out silence/horror/scream affinity and focused mind (http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?prie...MH3ajL6,,10433)
there are even enough points left to spec into imp ve

[Azyoulike]

Right now it's an interesting idea but losing 4% Stam and 13% of your spirit based regen for 15 SP seems a bad deal. The only thing this buff in 3.2.2 will accomplish as it stands is to make for some interesting levelling builds.

So how much of a buff would we need?

I'm thinking it would need to give the same 50% as meditation and a further 10% Spirit->SP conversion to be a clear choice.

[Worshaka]

2 of these 5 points make nowhere else sense, and for the other three you have to make one decision

I disagree... the first 3 points are a complete waste to get access to 2 points that yield at best 6 or 7 sp that when normalised over the chance to proc probably comes out at 4 to 5 sp.

It's much more benefical to pick up Shadow Affinity & Imp VE even if these talents have limited use themself. However when they are useful they become particularly useful. I was always able to be at full dps for Hodir 25 Hard Mode, I could max burn for Vezax as well thanks to shadow affinity. Imp VE is always useful in progression type content because half the difficulty is keeping people alive and imp VE gives yourself extremely high survivability.

When it all boils down, these talents are far greater than the 5sp ST/IST are going to give. That 5 sp over a 5min encounter would be lucky to end up as 2K damage. Once you evaluate the effect those 5 talent points have then you realise how poor that talent really is, particularly considering out mana pool is so great and we don't require the regen component.

[plspirit]

well, shadow affinity is completely useless except for one or two encounters (i agree with hodir 25 hard, but i didn't have any issues concearning vezax, the first cloud takes some seconds to spawn, which is usually enough time to give the tank some margin)

and as you can see, i do spec imp ve, i leave out focused mind
and ST is not that useless it seems to be. mind searing almost certainly leads to killing blows, ST and bombing is quite useful

[Worshaka]

Garbage... 80% of most instances is trash and shadow affinity is great for Mind Sear, multi dotting, the increasing packs that have damage resistance to stop AoE. It has plenty of utility, far more than some pointless mana regen and 5sp.

[plspirit]

well, your opinion

before i pull aggro whilst bombing trash, 3 warlocks are already dead
i pull aggro bombing, if i start to early, and shadow affinity wouldn't help anything there. the time window when i can start bombing without pulling aggro is maybe 0,5s after the tanks initial attack, with shadowaffinity its well, maybe 0,2s...

aggro while bombing concearns mobs which spawn in the middle of the bombing area (like the worms in the hodir tunnel) and thats a situation shadow affinity doesnt help anything, if you're the only one bombing, just wait, if not, locks and moonkins certainly pull aggro before you can (and then theres still fade)


now multidotting, which mobs do you multidot? right tanked mobs, if there are "untanked" mobs you mostly start bombing (and then, see above)
can't tell me, that you would pull aggro of a tanked mob which is one of 2 or 3 targets you multidot, you don't even pull aggro of one single mob whos victim to your full dps potential
one situation is there, one tank tanking multiple mobs (in raids never seen this without having the raidlead giving us a defined killorder, hence assisting)