Gear Vs Skill The final SCIENTIFIC decision

[Nangz]

The faceroll is one term used to describe a class or character that does amazing things without any effort and without skill.

I have been both disturbed and fascinated with this issue of wow raiding since i started playing.
When I began raiding it was early wotlk and i geared up like most others. But problem was i fell behind. When ulduar was out my gear was finally good enough by the time that the crusader's colissium was announced. I did my first guild progression 10 ulduar run wearing only 3 items form nax 25 and most were badge,crafted and 10 naxx earned gear.

I pulled 4k dps on General: wow-heroes said i am 10 ulduar ready but that was dps higher than everyone except one hunter in my raid.

Amazing! Does gear really have as little impact as people say?


Then i see a death knight decked in 25 naxx bis gear doing only 4k dps on patchwerk? Huh? no skill but gear? Now i'm confused


So which is a bigger part of your dps? your gear? or your skill?


lets put it to the test as a community.

My proposal is that we test this scientifically.

We test the impacts of dps by using BIS gear without a spec and no gear with a spec.
All tests will be on a boss target dummy at or near full health and should last 5 minutes


This process will work in this way.

A character with BIS gear for their class will test their dps without any talent points allocated in any spec and through use a cast random macro of spells of their class that cause damage. This will isolate the gear in the idea that gear>skill. No buffs except excluded ones shoudl be used this includes blessing of might, totems or any buff that you can get from talents or players. Gear buffs are fine (procs from teir bonuses, enchants etc)


Some exceptions to this process include

paladins- because judgements require a seal you should use righteousness because it does not have any stacking component although this should be included in your cast random macro.

Warlocks- A pet should be summoned by random meaning you pick it at random. It should not be included in your cast random macro and should be set to defensive.

Shamans- Your weapon "enchants" should be included in your cast random macro IF they: cause an increase in damage or increase in a stat (flame tongue)


druids- probably the hardest to test this should be done in 3 phases- bearform test using only bear damage abilities, cat form test, should be done using only cat form, and caster should be done using only damaging spells.


Warriors should use 2 tests that have 2 macros one for battle and one for berserker stances.

Death Knights- should be using blood presence



rules of thumb- if your class can start from stealth do it.
if your class has ranged and melee capabilities do so in melee range. exceptions are hunters because although i've seen it for the purpose of this test all hunters should be the hunter of the ranged variety >.<

This test should be used by spamming your cast random macro that includes your damaging abilities and done on a boss traning dummy in melee range for all classes except a hunter (this includes mages and other casters auto attack should be in there but feel free to substitute it with a wand if you choose so but shoudl only be used if your skill for wand is greater than that of your melee weapon)


example of tests- a warlock should use in their macro shadowbolt, corruption, coa, cod,coe, cow, immolate, incinerate, soul fire, drain soul, drain life, drain mana (even if it doesn't work), auto attack (or wand), shadowflame (be in melee range), searing pain, fear, howl of terror, hellfire and health funnel

do not use abilities that you wouldn't use in combat (hunters don't dismiss your pet if you do just don't for this test)




The skill test- this test is alot easier

pick a spec of your choice
verify your optimal rotation
purchase a grey weapon with no stats of your appropriate level if it is required to dps (melee, hunters etc)
perform your rotation as you would in a raid with all cooldowns and all powers




this is the test it is a gear and no skill vs skill and no gear test bis gear is preferered





feel free to post your results here and this should also show that classes will have differing resluts because a paladins with most of their dps skills on short cooldowns will have very limited options which should prove that the gear portion of a ret paladin's dps will be most impacting.

vs a class like a mage where they may do somethign to the effect of frostbolt, arcane missiles, ice lance, fire blast, Arcane explosion, fireball, wand


please in this thread do not post your opinions just post your results or questions you may have. This is not ment to be a flame war.



oh also do NOT for all classes use spells that have targeting requirements such as aoes like blizzard, flamestrike rain of fire, volley death and decay etc


This is the Final decision on a class by class basis!

[Eurytos]

I did not read this post. Science does not exist in video games.

[Deathcold]

You lost me at target dummies... how cientific anything done on it could be?

[Stats]

this is top 10 most stupid threads.

[Wilhelmi]

This is just stupid. If you have both, you're good. If you have neither, you're bad. If you only have the other, you should get better.

Too bad you put so much time into your post.

[Shampox]

I really don't see how that is going to accomplish anything...

[blargh312]

This is an astoundingly stupid idea.

[HarmlessShakes]

You lost me at target dummies...

[General Vezax]

A character with BIS gear for their class will test their dps without any talent points allocated in any spec and through use a cast random macro of spells of their class that cause damage

Druids
Shaman
Warriors
DKs
Rogues
Anything with more than one way to dps...

= fail

Lets get this warrior to use rend a couple thousand times while the other one is spamming cleave. This wont work at all unless you run 1000+tests

[EdvardClassic]

I did not read this post. Science does not exist in video games.

Science exists in everything around you. Stop making posts just for the sake of doing it.

[Vongimi]

Druids
Shaman
Warriors
DKs
Rogues
Anything with more than one way to dps...

= fail

Lets get this warrior to use rend a couple thousand times while the other one is spamming cleave. This wont work at all unless you run 1000+tests

DKs used to faceroll to high ratings with cast random macros, i remember seeing the videos of this guy that had everything from death grip to plague strike to CoI bound on a single button and every single one of his bindings was bound to it, and was up to like 2200 rating (before rating inflation).

[Barradin]

Your proposition is largely flawed with the exception of your grey weapon idea (assuming the players being compared are otherwise naked, have identical specs and are trying identical rotations) which could determine skill in a stand and shoot fight where someone doesnt' have to look at what's going on.

The rest of it is too random and provides no control group to compare your findings to actually ascertain anything useful.

but while we're on the topic... to provide something constructive... take a look at this... this guy's actually done calculations to this effect. It's basic and certainly full of its own set of holes but in the name of actually furthering this idea a bit...

http://greedygoblin.blogspot.com/2009/08/ungeared.html

EDIT: sorry... the link doesn't take you to the full article nor can i find it... still a cool story though:P

[Nangz]

Your proposition is largely flawed with the exception of your grey weapon idea (assuming the players being compared are otherwise naked, have identical specs and are trying identical rotations) which could determine skill in a stand and shoot fight where someone doesnt' have to look at what's going on.

The rest of it is too random and provides no control group to compare your findings to actually ascertain anything useful.

but while we're on the topic... to provide something constructive... take a look at this... this guy's actually done calculations to this effect. It's basic and certainly full of its own set of holes but in the name of actually furthering this idea a bit...

http://greedygoblin.blogspot.com/2009/08/ungeared.html

that's what i'm saying

you can have good gear but to terrible dps (odd are against you but it is possible and one of the sides)

the other side is bad gear but amazing results or dps (as verified by that post)

the simple way to test with good gear is by doing a cast random macro this simulates the lack of skill a player may have and will show the true result of gear on dps

the player without gear but with a real spec and rotation is showing the skill is more important view but taking it to teh extreme. The only reason that the grey weapon was there is because some classes require weapons to do some of thier spells. Mages do not need anything while a rogue needs a weapon to do say a backstab aka "requires melee weapon"



and yes target dummies was a last resort idea but do you really expect anyone to try to test these in a raid raid? this is a dps test and while you could run simulations you still have to make the macro for the simulation and really how hard is it to spam one button when your done casting or using that particular ability?

Skill, you can have uber leet gear and suck monkey ball hair.

oh really? you've never met the person with the amazing skills that pull amazing dps for their gear but because their gear is so bad they don't do good dps?

[Sanguissa]

Skill is not number. Unless you want to take it philosipicaly, you cant take take a "scientific" look on it. /thread

[Torzak]

I just want to point out that this is not scientific at all.

Cast Random? Seriously?

Do you realize how many dots/bleeds would be clipped well beyond what even most of the unskilled players would manage?

"Oh look, 2 combo points and my cast random Ferocious Bites my combo points away" Even unskilled druids aren't likely to do that.

"Oh look, 28secs remaining on Savage Roar and my cast random refreshes Savage Roar with 1 combo point." Even unskilled druids aren't likely to do that.

Random ability use is so far from being able to replicate what unskilled players would do. This is silly. More bluntly put, I should probably say retarded.

rules of thumb- if your class can start from stealth do it.

Stealth openers (Pounce/Ravage) are a loss of DPS for feral druid (They are used for PvP or goofing off). You can be unskilled with the rotation/priority set, and still know and understand this.

Random use of abilities is in no way, shape, or form, remotely close to the same thing as simulating the unskilled. All it is is a retarded waste of time.

[Ligaments]

It's far more difficult to train a poor player who has good gear than it is to gear up a skilled player in blues and greens.

Skill >> Gear, every time.

[Saverem]

I didn't bother reading your post, way too long.

But skill IS EXPONENTIALLY better than gear.

Look at all the top guilds, they want the player not necessarily the best geared ones (although some times best gear means they have proven themselves).

I'd say skill 95% and gear 5%. Whats the point in being decked out in ToC25 gear when you're just auto attacking?

[Sarcasm]

In blues/greens I could pull off single target DPS that was much greater than anyone else around me, because I knew in-and-out what I was doing.

Skill > gear.

[Nd]

TL;DR

[exdeath202]

"A character with BIS gear for their class will test their dps without any talent points allocated in any spec and through use a cast random macro of spells of their class that cause damage. This will isolate the gear in the idea that gear>skill. No buffs except excluded ones shoudl be used this includes blessing of might, totems or any buff that you can get from talents or players. Gear buffs are fine (procs from teir bonuses, enchants etc)"
That makes absolutely no sense. A character with no talents isnt a character with no skill, nor does randomcast represent a bad player, bad players tend more to loose time without casting anything. Not to mention that a naked character with talents cant do more damage than a geared character, even if it did it means nothing, its pure absurd.
What you should be comparing is several characters with the same gear, race, class and talents controlled by different person on several figths and on target dummies. If possible they should be using same computer, conection and addons. If they do different damage, skill is making the difference. Your tests make no sense.