Balanced Druid lookin for advice (dps/damage)

[Deleted]

don't forget to read my edit Also that only talks about IS , so you're looking at a little outdated material as on most fights with gear now (especially 245 Idol) MF becomes a stronger dot to priortise.

[Fonzey]

don't forget to read my edit Also that only talks about IS , so you're looking at a little outdated material as on most fights with gear now (especially 245 Idol) MF becomes a stronger dot to priortise.

You 'out-gear' 2pc T8? You're not helping yourself here :

Also, yes you're correct MF does out damage IS nowadays, but that doesn't Nerf the quality of IS compared to Eclipsed Wrath or Starfires - it just means that MF takes priority over IS, but IS still remains priority over Wrath and Starfire.

[Deleted]

Yeah , and don't start we've already had this conversation in the BiS list you can actually outgear 2pT8 like I said with the 4set bonus from T9 it makes your wraths and starfires do 4% more damage which happens to lean it back in towards wrath and starfire > dots .. If you want to discuss outgear 2PT8 I'd just advise you to uninstall WoW.

[Boomkindance]

Here's a Log of my guilds last run of Ony/VoA/ToC/ToGC
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/h...?s=2418&e=2584

Analyze it if you will but i will summarize:

First off:
Guild had no ele shaman or demo lock this raid if your saying "lol ure bad" or "14.5k avg starfire crits are sooo lowww"
WoL didnt take treant damage into account, which averages 50k damage per duration, so you can increase my damage by 100k - 150k depending on the fight.

As well, Faction champs i am strictly CC, so yea. With all that out of the way:

Analysis:

my Insect Swarm is ticking for 1043 damage (i dont have IS glyph due to avoidance for tanks, see my page2 post) so increase that by 30% and you have ~1350 damage per tick, IS ticks 7 times, so 1350 x7 = 9450 damage per 1 GCD

My wrath crits were averaging 8955, and crit chance on that parse was about 40% (really low.... gogo RNG) so even if crit chance was 100% it wouldnt be worth it. But im sure the argument wasnt on solar eclipse, it was on lunar, so:

My starfire crits were averaging 14,455 for that attempt, and during lunar eclipse SF crit chance is 85% or more especially with 2p t8. So: 14,455x0.85 = 12,286 per cast. My starfire assuming permanent Natures Grace, and all haste buffs in raid is about 1.8s and GCD is ~1.1s So:

1.8/1.1 = 1.6363 and so 12,286/1.6363 = 7508 damage per GCD

So from this analysis (if you followed it) concludes that:

1 GCD of Insect swarm (if not currently on target) = 9450 damage
1 GCD of eclipsed Wrath (no Bloodlust) = 8955 damage
1 GCD of eclipsed Starfire (no Bloodlust) = 7508 damage

With bloodlust it is proven that only Moonfire should be reapplied, specifically for the 200 crit rating (idol) but also because its damage with 2pc T9 is substantially more that the other spells.

But for run of the mill dps, assuming you have the glyph of Insect Swarm you should keep both dots up 100% of the time, except during Bloodlust, or the very end of Lunar Eclipse, so that you can work your "wise eclipse" Lunar--->solar eclipse transfer.

These are not theory numbers, they were taken from a Log, which i hear is more important than theory nowadays.... ill leave my opinion on that to myself lest i be crucified.

P.S feel free to rape my Log, everyone and their pet troll are doing it these days.

P.S.S This post was done to solidify the argument made by Fonzey, as you guys are borderline abusing him for no good reason. His thoughts are rational, and the burden of proof is not on him.. Regardless the proof is above.

[FourofaKind]

and i am doing ewerything u said above. same rotation.

this, is not

i dont reapply dots in midle of eclispe. i dot it at the same time when eclipse procs. example. im casting wrath and see my SF eclipse procs. i cast moonfire and start to cast SF till i see Wrath eclipse proc, then i cast IS and continiue with wrath and repeat.. this is only when im standing still and not walking around or smthing. i dont reaply dots even if i dont have any eclipse proced. io wait for the right eclipse to proc and then cast the Dot.

if i have fight were i need to run i always use all the GCDs. i see which of my dots has the less time left and i reaply it.

this. As "everything said above" (for the majority) was keeping dots up 100% of the time.

Quoted from the EJ Beginners Guide...

DoTs


Against a single target, reapply MF and IS whenever they drop. MF should have higher priority for reapplication, but the difference is tiny. During a Wrath-heavy part of the cycle, it may be best to reapply MF last (after IS or other instants) to minimize the chance that it will drop before you cast SF again.

Now if thats not selective reading, Idk what is... go down 2 more spaces...

There's currently a slight open question about whether it's worth waiting until Eclipse ends if a DoT expires in the final few seconds Eclipse. This is hard to model and the DPS difference is very small, so consider it a matter of personal taste for the moment.

If you read more serious discussions on the topic, most point to Staying in eclipse rather then refreshing dots, however, EJ likes to be 100% sure of something before they "set it in stone" and as such, the discussion still speaks to the "personal taste".

Again, it still sounds like your the "little brother" in this one. Try throwing some of your own work into the equation to give your argument more ground (cause right now, it doesnt even sound like its "your" arguement, but more of someone elses arguement that you just happen to agree with)

[Fonzey]

Yeah , and don't start we've already had this conversation in the BiS list you can actually outgear 2pT8 like I said with the 4set bonus from T9 it makes your wraths and starfires do 4% more damage which happens to lean it back in towards wrath and starfire > dots .. If you want to discuss outgear 2PT8 I'd just advise you to uninstall WoW.

If you have access to the T8 2-piece, use it. It's not worth removing for any currently available gear. The T9 2-piece is also quite good, making 2T8/2T9 the best possible option currently. 4T9 with ilvl 258 pieces is nearly as good.

You're bang on there FourofaKind - I am 'little brother', I don't have the time, patience or knowledge to work out the things these guys work out - but I'm happy to make use of their time and effort and use to to benefit myself. At least I'm providing data and quotes from reputable sources, unlike Poldara and yourself who are happy to nitpick at certain quotes, then read between the lines to use them against me.

Fact is I guess, the three of us are all happy with our raid performances - and we all feel we can do enough damage to conquer the content our guilds are working on - so that's great, but we've all come to blows whilst trying to help out a player who is genuinely struggling.

If there is one thing we can agree on, the difference between refreshing DoTs regardless, and refreshing DoTs situationally outside of Eclipse is minimal - and both techniques can provide adequate results.

What we disagree on however is which technique is 'better', however Marginal. I've done my bit, I've provided real numbers which have been calculated using a reputable DPS spreadsheet - and I've also quoted several quotes from different people, albeit all from a reputable community (EJ) which support my opinion.

Whether you chose to believe me, or acknowledge my data is largely irrelevant to me - I just hope anyone reading these forums in an attempt to learn something accurate will figure out for themselves what to apply to their game play.

Take it easy

[Deleted]

Here's a Log of my guilds last run of Ony/VoA/ToC/ToGC
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/h...?s=2418&e=2584

Analyze it if you will but i will summarize:

First off:
Guild had no ele shaman or demo lock this raid if your saying "lol ure bad" or "14.5k avg starfire crits are sooo lowww"
WoL didnt take treant damage into account, which averages 50k damage per duration, so you can increase my damage by 100k - 150k depending on the fight.

As well, Faction champs i am strictly CC, so yea. With all that out of the way:

Analysis:

my Insect Swarm is ticking for 1043 damage (i dont have IS glyph due to avoidance for tanks, see my page2 post) so increase that by 30% and you have ~1350 damage per tick, IS ticks 7 times, so 1350 x7 = 9450 damage per 1 GCD

My wrath crits were averaging 8955, and crit chance on that parse was about 40% (really low.... gogo RNG) so even if crit chance was 100% it wouldnt be worth it. But im sure the argument wasnt on solar eclipse, it was on lunar, so:

My starfire crits were averaging 14,455 for that attempt, and during lunar eclipse SF crit chance is 85% or more especially with 2p t8. So: 14,455x0.85 = 12,286 per cast. My starfire assuming permanent Natures Grace, and all haste buffs in raid is about 1.8s and GCD is ~1.1s So:

1.8/1.1 = 1.6363 and so 12,286/1.6363 = 7508 damage per GCD

So from this analysis (if you followed it) concludes that:

1 GCD of Insect swarm (if not currently on target) = 9450 damage
1 GCD of eclipsed Wrath (no Bloodlust) = 8955 damage
1 GCD of eclipsed Starfire (no Bloodlust) = 7508 damage

With bloodlust it is proven that only Moonfire should be reapplied, specifically for the 200 crit rating (idol) but also because its damage with 2pc T9 is substantially more that the other spells.

But for run of the mill dps, assuming you have the glyph of Insect Swarm you should keep both dots up 100% of the time, except during Bloodlust, or the very end of Lunar Eclipse, so that you can work your "wise eclipse" Lunar--->solar eclipse transfer.

These are not theory numbers, they were taken from a Log, which i hear is more important than theory nowadays.... ill leave my opinion on that to myself lest i be crucified.

P.S feel free to rape my Log, everyone and their pet troll are doing it these days.

My wraths are 10k crit & SF's are over 16k I'll link a WoL once from wednesday to show it but yeh...Considering SF is 90% crit for me (dunno how but I check my recount after every fight) Wrath is only a 55% crit somtimes pushing 60%. I actually never check what my IS is per tick but MF(dot) is my 3rd damage done on a non AoE fight, ISS is quiet lower then that again even with an uptime of around 80% (for both MF and ISS) I should also note I have the ISS Glyph and a talent point in genises (I'll give more exact figures once I can post my WoL). I'm not lol'ing ur shit and I thank you for posting ur logs it's always nice to see how other players do things.

[Boomkindance]

My wraths are 10k crit & SF's are over 16k I'll link a WoL once from wednesday to show it but yeh...Considering SF is 90% crit for me (dunno how but I check my recount after every fight) Wrath is only a 55% crit somtimes pushing 60%. I actually never check what my IS is per tick but MF(dot) is my 3rd damage done on a non AoE fight, ISS is quiet lower then that again even with an uptime of around 80% (for both MF and ISS) I should also note I have the ISS Glyph and a talent point in genises (I'll give more exact figures once I can post my WoL). I'm not lol'ing ur shit and I thank you for posting ur logs it's always nice to see how other players do things.

If you read the whole thing you would notice that I said in a disclaimer at the beginning (for people like you) that we were running without an elemental shaman or demo lock in the raid.... ie no ~10% bonus to Spell Power.....ie ~10 less damage on ALL the abilities, but they scale similarly so the outcome is very close to the same... enough that it wont make a difference for spell choices.

[FourofaKind]

Again, "what you say and what you do"

Boomkindance, nothing is being said about your DPS being low, but I WILL call you out on your ~63% Dot uptime on boss fights, especially bosses like Jaraxxas...

The "Proof" so you say should be "Proven" by a process of following the argument, which you in your logs CLEARLY do not...

The thing that I find frustrating about this whole "arguement" is that it is a farce even in itself. Argument is when point is placed into debate against another point and rational discussion takes place to prove or disprove said points.

MY "Abuse" as you say is brought about due to the display you and Fonzey are presenting... clear lack of knowledge of the mechanics in question, and when that fact is brought to attention, you hide behind Meters, Spreadsheets (which you don't even know how to use properly), and OTHER PEOPLES arguements instead of facing up and saying that which is true. "I Honestly have no knowledge of the subject, but here is what the tools SOMEONE else wrote/What someone else said is argueing."

You quoted Arawethion (his druid is Hamlet and you probably don't get the reference) without fully understanding the words which you are fighting for.

You posted meters, and quoted those meters, before even checking to ensure the meters accurately portrayed your argument, which THEY DO NOT.

You can take a stance on just about anything, (say for instance, "the sky is always red"), but if YOU can't give the WHY (because the bible says so, for instance, is NOT valid) then you have NO ARGUEMENT and you are either a moron or a troll, neither of which has any place for argument/debate. (You can't use other people's arguement as precidence for your point if you have no BASIC point/subject knowledge to begin with)

If you don't know what you are talking about, don't try to prove people who DO know what they are talking about wrong...

Case and point, if you want to say that I am wrong, I will ask you why, if you can't provide an answer with your own knowledge on the subject, I WILL call you out on it. (During BC I had furvorent debates with members of Exodus regaurding Haste vs Spirit on a holy priest in Sunwell, haste won. Spirit made a minor comeback for a bit, but even today, only bad priests stack spirit over haste. I argued haste.)

[Deleted]

If you read the whole thing you would notice that I said in a disclaimer at the beginning (for people like you) that we were running without an elemental shaman or demo lock in the raid.... ie no ~10% bonus to Spell Power.....ie ~10 less damage on ALL the abilities, but they scale similarly so the outcome is very close to the same... enough that it wont make a difference for spell choices.

I never have an ele shaman or a demo lock In fact I rarely get a fecking WoA totem.... Again if you read my full post I was just noting how different our values are. Without ANY buffs at ALL , self gear'd those are what my spells are hitting for that's with 4 piece 9.3, So... would that not make up the difference ? Also... your dot uptimes are pretty low so I don't see what you exactly what you mean here... ?

[Boomkindance]

Again, "what you say and what you do"

Boomkindance, nothing is being said about your DPS being low, but I WILL call you out on your ~63% Dot uptime on boss fights, especially bosses like Jaraxxas...

The "Proof" so you say should be "Proven" by a process of following the argument, which you in your logs CLEARLY do not...

The thing that I find frustrating about this whole "arguement" is that it is a farce even in itself. Argument is when point is placed into debate against another point and rational discussion takes place to prove or disprove said points.

MY "Abuse" as you say is brought about due to the display you and Fonzey are presenting... clear lack of knowledge of the mechanics in question, and when that fact is brought to attention, you hide behind Meters, Spreadsheets (which you don't even know how to use properly), and OTHER PEOPLES arguements instead of facing up and saying that which is true. "I Honestly have no knowledge of the subject, but here is what the tools SOMEONE else wrote/What someone else said is argueing."

You quoted Arawethion (his druid is Hamlet and you probably don't get the reference) without fully understanding the words which you are fighting for.

You posted meters, and quoted those meters, before even checking to ensure the meters accurately portrayed your argument, which THEY DO NOT.

You can take a stance on just about anything, (say for instance, "the sky is always red"), but if YOU can't give the WHY (because the bible says so, for instance, is NOT valid) then you have NO ARGUEMENT and you are either a moron or a troll, neither of which has any place for argument/debate. (You can't use other people's arguement as precidence for your point if you have no BASIC point/subject knowledge to begin with)

If you don't know what you are talking about, don't try to prove people who DO know what they are talking about wrong...

Case and point, if you want to say that I am wrong, I will ask you why, if you can't provide an answer with your own knowledge on the subject, I WILL call you out on it. (During BC I had furvorent debates with members of Exodus regaurding Haste vs Spirit on a holy priest in Sunwell, haste won. Spirit made a minor comeback for a bit, but even today, only bad priests stack spirit over haste. I argued haste.)

sigh.... and just like poldara.. you too look at a piece of a post that you want to critisize and go after it whole heartedly.... if you reread my post I said that I dont have the IS glyph and therefore am not casting Insect Swarm during Lunar eclipse.. which has an uptime of close to 33% of my time which explains my ~60% uptime on insect swarm.

Also, you quoted my Jarraxxus fight, in which when i am attacking the nether portal, or the volcano i do not dot them, because the DoT's dont last the full duration, and the portal, and volcano's require more burst from everyone rather than people dotting.

Im not going to insult your intellect because i really dont know you at all, and that would be a juvenile claim to make. Im simply asking that you read my entire post, including my disclaimers i made on the fight, that is all.

Cheers.

[Boomkindance]

P.S this is the last post I am making on this subject... take the parse and analyze it.... or choose not too. I will not be responding again.



EDIT: To the post below this one, about the neck piece, I just got it in the ToGC 10 clear last night, so havent gemmed it yet, I dont raid again until tomorrow so i will be doing it today, as well as replacing my SP/hit and SP/Haste gems that are not needed now that i have the neck.

[DaChicken]

Oh and boomkindance......plz gem that neck!! ;D

[Fonzey]

Regardless of Boomkindance' DoT uptime, can you argue - from the data he provided us that a single Wrath, or a single Starfire can do more damage in the GCD consumed than a single IS or MF cast can?

Please, do

edit: Infact, bugger it - I'll hide behind Boomkindance and 'retire' from this post too. I've done everything I can to argue my point accurately, and I've had nothing in response other than irrelevant bullcrap with nothing to support it. We won't achieve anything from this

[Deleted]

sigh.... and just like poldara.. you too look at a piece of a post that you want to critisize and go after it whole heartedly.... if you reread my post I said that I dont have the IS glyph and therefore am not casting Insect Swarm during Lunar eclipse.. which has an uptime of close to 33% of my time which explains my ~60% uptime on insect swarm.

Also, you quoted my Jarraxxus fight, in which when i am attacking the nether portal, or the volcano i do not dot them, because the DoT's dont last the full duration, and the portal, and volcano's require more burst from everyone rather than people dotting.

Im not going to insult your intellect because i really dont know you at all, and that would be a juvenile claim to make. Im simply asking that you read my entire post, including my disclaimers i made on the fight, that is all.

Cheers.

I'm sorry but I have to think your being silly here you make a big post explaining that we should use ISS and ISS is the best etc... and blah blah blah and then you counter your OWN argument by posting logs showing an extremely low uptime and not only that but go on to say you don't use it glyph'd NOR do you refresh it during lunar eclipse .... which completely 100% backs up my point, do you not understand what you're typing?

@Fonzey; I will on wednesday when I post my logs... huge difference in the wrath / starfire crits (I also will not have an ele shaman OR a demo lock and a WoA totem might even be questionable).

[Boomkindance]

OK.... LAST post.....

Poldara... READ WHAT IM SAYING!

again you didnt read the disclaimer at the top of my blog....

it says i dont have glyph of Insect Swarm so that my tanks get 3% more avoidance..... you know... that thing that helps healers heal... and tanks not die... avoidance.... much better than 200 extra dps imo.

read the damn tooltip and know your spells.

Peace.

[Deleted]

OK.... LAST post.....

Poldara... READ WHAT IM SAYING!

again you didnt read the disclaimer at the top of my blog....

it says i dont have glyph of Insect Swarm so that my tanks get 3% more avoidance..... you know... that thing that helps healers heal... and tanks not die... avoidance.... much better than 200 extra dps imo.

read the damn tooltip and know your spells.

Peace.

HAHAHA you actually talk so much CRAP it's getting funny and you're not even reading my posts. First off you said to read the disclaimer which I did I just pointed out even with all the ISS on MY meters are extremely low and don't match yours. Then I even went on to THANK you for posting your meters... Then I said you talk about ISS being amazing but don't even use the glyph and have a very poor uptime for it , ISS can help that's a fair point . Our healers and tanks are good enough not to need it however so I have the 'luxury' to use it. My point is if you consider it so fricken good why the hell don't you use it ?
READ WHAT I'M SAYING;
I have all the exact same setup as you (without ele shammy / desto lock etc..) Yet my figures do NOT match yours.

[DaChicken]

im pretty sure the OP has abondoned his thread by now..

[FourofaKind]

Based on your post Fonzey, its clear to me now that you don't even know what you are argueing against...

Insect Swarm 8903.53/14 seconds = 636 dps

Moonfire 18315.03 / 24 = 763 dps

Wrath under eclipse 7668/1.2 (tell me how much haste you have base plz its probably less the this aka closer to /1(.1) = 6390 DPS

Starfire under eclipse 7503.24/2.4 (again with proper haste more likely <2(.2) = 3126.25

763 dps > 3124.25 ?!?!

6390 dps < 636 !?!?!?!?!?!

I still think 100% uptime is not worth the tradeoff, the numbers may seem big at face, but remember in 5 min testcase you only assume halftime of Eclipse so take the averages(differences) down by at least 1/2... Overall you are looking at a ~12% incr total damage/dps by focusing Eclipse instead of 100% uptime. Warlocks and Shadowpriests operate differently then we do, I already mentioned that.

I hate to be a dick but...

I did not say that Wrath/Starfire had Greater DPET then Moonfire/IS, I said quite the opposite, and I said that you don't know shit about the mechanics behind DPET, and you have proven that you don't.

I did say that you dont know how the GCD works in the least bit, prove me wrong

I did say that the ratio of damage lost by not maintaining 100% DoT uptime is less then the dps loss by missing an Eclipse cast, I'll add to this argument, you can ignore up to 10 ticks of IS and 4 ticks of Moonfire before you are soaking unacceptable losses from your dots... prove me wrong

Boomkin dance, you say the glyph is only worth 200dps, yet you also claim the reason you do not keep it up 100% is because it is not glyphed. So the diffrence of 200 DPS validates a loss of 50% uptime? That doesnt seem to make sense in my eyes.

The end point is, I stated my argument.

You challenged your argument based on a spreadsheet you don't fully comprehend.

I challenged your argument based on numbers and knowledge of the mechanics

You countered that with... .... ...... ....... a forum post?!?! (again, with a lack of understanding, let me quote you directally "You're bang on there FourofaKind - I am 'little brother', I don't have the time, patience or knowledge to work out the things these guys work out ") (and a combat log which proves my arguement and my math, as the uptimes are at what I am claming to be appropriate values)

Long story short... This is why we can't have nice things.

[Fonzey]

HAHAHA you actually talk so much CRAP it's getting funny and you're not even reading my posts. First off you said to read the disclaimer which I did I just pointed out even with all the ISS on MY meters are extremely low and don't match yours. Then I even went on to THANK you for posting your meters... Then I said you talk about ISS being amazing but don't even use the glyph and have a very poor uptime for it , ISS can help that's a fair point . Our healers and tanks are good enough not to need it however so I have the 'luxury' to use it. My point is if you consider it so fricken good why the hell don't you use it ?
READ WHAT I'M SAYING;
I have all the exact same setup as you (without ele shammy / desto lock etc..) Yet my figures do NOT match yours.

Apologies, this may not be you:

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/J...9/?s=552&e=679

1300 average IS ticks x 7 = 9100 per app

8739 average wrath crit, with a 52% crit rate

FourofaKind, my argument is, and always has been that refreshing Insect Swarm or MF is better use of a GCD than Wrath or SF, even during their relevant eclipse with the single exception being the final SF for a lunar eclipse, as WiseEclipse takes advantage of that to proc the next Solar. You've posted nothing to counter this, other than attacking my wording and quoted sources.

I'm keeping quiet now until Poldara posts a log showing a different result.