Proposal for a new LoH

[Aeorred]

Updated Idea here: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...77635738&sid=1

Blizzard needs obvious guidance with LoH as their band aid fix of slapping Forbearance on things is getting old.

I've come up with something a holy pally would hopefully like in exchange that doesn't fuck over prot and shouldn't be overpowered in PvP.

First off, forbearance on LoH, remove it, entirely. Create a new Debuff that lasts 30 seconds or more, call it something witty, unlike "Nice damage and I'll let you finish, but I just got some awesome heals." While active, a target can't be healed by LoH or given Hand of protection. Also make LoH share a 30 second CD with Hand of Protection to avoid the OPness of "Oh hey! Watch this! Bubble, BoP and LoH my whole 3v3 team!" However, normal LoH does not apply this debuff because:

Lay on Hands
40 yd Range
Instant - 3 Minute CD
Heals a friendly target for an amount equal to ~20% of their maximum health and restores 50% of their base mana.

The current mana gain is currently 50% base anyway. If the mana is an issue for balance, get rid of it. Holy paladins shouldn't need it as much as they currently do. As for the Debuff, it doesn't do enough to warrant it any longer. It's essentially a NS+HT (10k instant heal on a 50k health tank vs 13k+ NS+HT, actually worse, but they can't cast it as feral/boomkin). This is where Holy now needs it buffed so, slightly redo the LoH talent and recreate the LoH Major Glyph.

Improved Lay on Hands
2 Ranks
Grants the target of your Lay on Hands spell 10/20% reduced physical damage taken for 15 seconds. In addition, the cooldown for your lay on hands is reduced by 30/60 seconds. Once healed, the target cannot be the target of Lay on Hands or Hand of Protection for 30 seconds.

Major Glyph for LoH:
Increases the healing done by your Lay on Hands spell by 100%.

If you wanted to increase the mana gain too, double it as well. Whatever. Mana shouldn't be something holding this crap back.

Minor Glyph for LoH:
Remove or replace with a useful minor, as I think most paladins had this glyph. Possibly something related to increasing the duration of all our blessings by 10 minutes. Please. Having a bear and a tree in a 10 man means you need to give out 4 different pally buffs for one class if you don't have replacements, meaning you HAVE to use minor blessings, which suck still.

Now, I wouldn't say this is overpowered as a tank, more just a gimp CD when your healers are slacking. If it's too good, increase the CD so it's a guaranteed once per fight and reduce it more as holy.

Thoughts? Crap? Right direction? I'm just bored of them slapping us in the face because of PvP, which is now focusing on 1v1 and BGs? I mean really. If a paladin is a three phase boss fight, then who's the overpowered class killing us three times? /rant

[Solothas]

I posted this first on EJ, for more thought provoking replies, but I want to get a general consensus as well.

Stopped right there. If you want people to read over whatever magical idea you came up with that hasn't been discussed a hundred times on ten different forums; don't start by insulting them.

[Aeorred]

Stopped right there. If you want people to read over whatever magical idea you came up with that hasn't been discussed a hundred times on ten different forums; don't start by insulting them.

This forum has a great reputation for huge amounts of QQ or other forms of spam from all other classes on a respective class' forum. I've seen some amazing posts here but most are flooded with crap right after. My intention was not to insult anyone, and thought provoking were probably not the words to use, but useful posts? I don't know.

Edit for typos.

[Autodidact]

So.
Unglyphed, your version heals for as much as my shock on a tank...and significantly less on anyone else. (faction champs is a good example where LoH would make sense on a clothie).
Glyphed, it still heals less than my HL on a tank and I'd lose either a good chunk of regen or a large amount of HPS capability.
That does it for the underpowered part.
Now the overpowered.
For a holy pally: Every two minutes we can reduce the physical damage our tanks take by 20%? In addition to HoS and DS? Wow.

[Varius]

I was just thinking something simple like heals for 10% of pally's hp shields for 20% of the pally's hp with a 2 min cooldown, nice defensive cooldown/heal, easily useable on everything, but also fairly easy to counter in pvp so there isnt too much wining.

[Aeorred]

So.
Unglyphed, your version heals for as much as my shock on a tank...and significantly less on anyone else. (faction champs is a good example where LoH would make sense on a clothie).
Glyphed, it still heals less than my HL on a tank and I'd lose either a good chunk of regen or a large amount of HPS capability.
That does it for the underpowered part.
Now the overpowered.
For a holy pally: Every two minutes we can reduce the physical damage our tanks take by 20%? In addition to HoS and DS? Wow.

Firstly, numbers are not important, concept is.

Second, have you read what the current change is? You're saying you prefer never using LoH on a paladin because they can't use their CD's when needed? We need to get this to something we want to use, preferably a more powerful Nature's Swiftness + Healing Touch, which as I said heals for ~13k non-crit in 245 gear. BUT it has to be significantly worse for ret/prot to avoid PvP balance. I mean, you could make the glyph multiplier 150%, making it heal 50% of the tank's health.

Your arguments are you're losing a good 8k mana or 25k+ instant heal, on an 11 minute CD. My argument, you're still losing 8k mana if you wanted to make sure you can bubble and you won't be able to LoH a pally tank.

If the amount it heals for is absolute crap, make it a low base amount and give it a spell power coefficient of 3.5/3.5. So something like:

Lay on Hands
40 yd Range
Instant - 3 Minute CD
Heals a friendly target for 3716-4384 and restores 50% of their base mana.

With 3k spell power, it's an instant 6716-7384, unglyphed. Glyphed, 13-14k. Then add healing multipliers. Again, I'm just throwing out numbers. The point is the concept.

[Autodidact]

Firstly, numbers are not important, concept is.

Second, have you read what the current change is? You're saying you prefer never using LoH on a paladin because they can't use their CD's when needed? We need to get this to something we want to use, preferably a more powerful Nature's Swiftness + Healing Touch, which as I said heals for ~13k non-crit in 245 gear. BUT it has to be significantly worse for ret/prot to avoid PvP balance. I mean, you could make the glyph multiplier 150%, making it heal 50% of the tank's health.

Your arguments are you're losing a good 8k mana or 25k+ instant heal, on an 11 minute CD. My argument, you're still losing 8k mana if you wanted to make sure you can bubble and you won't be able to LoH a pally tank.

If the amount it heals for is absolute crap, make it a low base amount and give it a spell power coefficient of 3.5/3.5. So something like:

Lay on Hands
40 yd Range
Instant - 3 Minute CD
Heals a friendly target for 3716-4384 and restores 50% of their base mana.

With 3k spell power, it's an instant 6716-7384, unglyphed. Glyphed, 13-14k. Then add healing multipliers. Again, I'm just throwing out numbers. The point is the concept.

Of course I've read the current change. You can still LoH any other tank without thinking, and any good healing team has communication with their tanks to use CD's effectively. As a holy pally, the change means little to me. Smart play is smart play.
Yes, it's awful for bg's. Oh well.

In concept, I can see advantages. The problem with it being short cooldown and still having a damage reduction component is that leaves holy/prot paladins 3 defensive tank/raid cooldowns that can have ~25% uptime.

[steel_atlas]

Why not....

3 min CD
Restores health of a friendly target equal to 100% of the Paladins health over 20 secs and increases healing effects recieved and done 100%

So it functions as another Ohh shit button but doesnt have the burst healing it had before. Also the anti-MS effect would be a nice counter in PvP. I think it wouldnt need a debuff either.

Edit- Talents in Holy now keep the damage redux element, but also add a mana replenishment effect something along the line of 25-50% of the paladins mana pool. (Making it into a invenerate)

And the glyph could maybe shorten the duration of the hot but make it quicker.

Edit2: Or the talents or glyph could make it work like Holy Light does with a glyph everyone with in 10 yards gets 50% of the heal ticks.

[Autodidact]

Why not....

3 min CD
Restores health of a friendly target equal to 100% of the Paladins health over 20 secs and increases healing effects recieved and done 100%

So it functions as another Ohh shit button but doesnt have the burst healing it had before. Also the anti-MS effect would be a nice counter in PvP. I think it wouldnt need a debuff either.

Edit- Talents in Holy now keep the damage redux element, but also add a mana replenishment effect something along the line of 25-50% of the paladins mana pool. (Making it into a invenerate)

And the glyph could maybe shorten the duration of the hot but make it quicker.

This defeats the purpose of LoH right now. "Oh shit, *insert name* is low! LOH!"
If you have half the healing up front and the other 50% over 10 seconds, it would be very nice. 100% increased healing is a little much, though. It would be good in pvp, but WAYYYY overpowered in pve. 20% increased healing would be more than enough, though it would mean the cd would need to be longer if coupled with the damage reduction.

[Blueman]

Nice post Aeorred, and I'ma let you finish, but the blizz nerf to Lay on Hands is one of the best designed nerfs of all time.

[Raptorg]

Make it like this.

3 minute cooldown.
Cost: 75% of Base Mana.(3k something)
Heals target for 30% of total health and 50% of base mana. No coefficient.

Infusion of Light.
Your Holy Shock critical hits reduce the cast time of your next Flash of Light by 1.5 sec or increase the critical chance of your next Holy Light by 20%. In addition, increases the amount healed by LoH by 200% of your spellpower.

it will remain decent in the hands of a prot or ret, but will become very powerful in the hands of a holy paladin.
The coefficient can be toyed with in necessary.

[steel_atlas]

This defeats the purpose of LoH right now. "Oh shit, *insert name* is low! LOH!"
If you have half the healing up front and the other 50% over 10 seconds, it would be very nice. 100% increased healing is a little much, though. It would be good in pvp, but WAYYYY overpowered in pve. 20% increased healing would be more than enough, though it would mean the cd would need to be longer if coupled with the damage reduction.

Okay so...

5 min CD-Heals the target for 30% of the Paladins HP and another 70% over 12 seconds. Healing effects given and recieved by the target are increased 20%.

Talents reduce the cooldown and keep the damage redux but increase the length of the hot to 15-18secs CD to to 4/3 mins.


Edit: I actually like the orginal sure it doesnt give you the healing to make up the defeciet but it makes everyone else who is ohh shitting much better and their hots tick for enough to get out of the danger zone.

Again the huge Healing bonus is there because it doesnt heal up front.

I think it is more unique that way.

[lawomous]

How about this..

http://www.wowitemcreator.com/view/3..._on_Hands.html

Voilà, it's balanced for Prot and Ret, and still viable for Holy.

[Aeorred]

Why not....

3 min CD
Restores health of a friendly target equal to 100% of the Paladins health over 20 secs and increases healing effects recieved and done 100%

So it functions as another Ohh shit button but doesnt have the burst healing it had before. Also the anti-MS effect would be a nice counter in PvP. I think it wouldnt need a debuff either.

Edit- Talents in Holy now keep the damage redux element, but also add a mana replenishment effect something along the line of 25-50% of the paladins mana pool. (Making it into a invenerate)

And the glyph could maybe shorten the duration of the hot but make it quicker.

Edit2: Or the talents or glyph could make it work like Holy Light does with a glyph everyone with in 10 yards gets 50% of the heal ticks.

What you just said is possibly the most OP thing, ever. Imagine using this on a tank with beacon on the other one. Assuming the hot ticks every 2 seconds to avoid clipping, it's ticking for ~2.5k every two seconds. You then spam flash of Light on the target for like 12-15k with a near 1s cast, non crit. You could reach 40k HPS without using Holy Light. It also takes away from the whole, burst CD too, as mentioned.

As to Autodidact, yes, I can see the OPness that the talent brings. Switch it with imp Blessing of wisdom and prot or ret won't touch it. If needed, just remove the buff and there's no need for a debuff any longer. Then I guess you could leave the glyph as is and make the talent increase the healing done by 100% and reduce the CD.

How about this..

http://www.wowitemcreator.com/view/3..._on_Hands.html

Voilà, it's balanced for Prot and Ret, and still viable for Holy.

Brilliant. Just reduce the cooldown.

[Autodidact]

As to Autodidact, yes, I can see the OPness that the talent brings. Switch it with imp Blessing of wisdom and prot or ret won't touch it. If needed, just remove the buff and there's no need for a debuff any longer. Then I guess you could leave the glyph as is and make the talent increase the healing done by 100% and reduce the CD.

With the CD being so short, it really is just too many tank CD's for one spec. If it isn't going to heal as much as it does now, there does need to be some sort of extra effect to it. If it can be changed up so that the bonus would be beneficial to anyone in the raid, it would be in a much better place. At the moment, if you outgear encounters and everything goes as planned, LoH doesn't get touched. Get it some versatility and we're set. If I have any ideas for it, I'll post them. Unfortunately, I have none at the moment. XD

[Ronark]

Healing measured off of Base Health and Mana is bad.

[Aeorred]

Yeah. Not supposed to be base. My bad.

Anyway. Posted on the Paladin forums with changes.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...77635738&sid=1

[Raptorg]

Healing measured off of Base Health and Mana is bad.

I agree on the base health, but the base mana is fine.

[bowflexinbrah]

>_> NS healing touch non crit is like 10k at most

15k if u crit.

id like to see who is doin 13k non crit lol

[Ronark]

I agree on the base health, but the base mana is fine.

Depends on the class- Not that you'll calculate mana for each class. percentage of Max mana would be fine, maybe 10% or so.