Mp5 loot should go to healers first... fallacy?

[Ryme]

epic l2p issue OP.

[Edog720]

The only caster I play is a healer. This doesn't make the looting any more logical. I just want to know why people think that bad itemisation means anything when the upgrades are exactly the same - both get 100sp but some guy gets a useless stat too. Just because it has Mp5 doesn't mean that there is an upgrade to it somewhere.

A healer flat out benefits from all 3 stats that you listed on your OP. The Spellpower, Crit, and MP5. The DPS caster benefits from only 2 of those stats. The Spellpower and the Crit. In your example, only the spell power was an improvement over the weapon both the caster and the healer were running with.

So, when looking at it from the upgrade point of view, yes, the only difference and weighing factor is 100 spellpower. The arguement that it an upgrade for both is logical. However, your not taking into account the usefulness of all the stats to that caster. The weapon the DPS caster has is not being utilized to its full potential, as MP5 does not occur on most casters without a talent point in a specific talent ( Healers get these talents, DPS specs do not).

So, if we look at it from the point of view on which of the 2 characters would benefit the most from the weapon, we still see that the healer gains a benefit from all 3 stats, and the DPS caster from only 2. It is logical that it goes to the healer. On a further note, most raids will offer another version of similar weapons with different stats....such as that same exact upgrade but instead of MP5 it would be Hit, or maybe haste (though haste is arguably just as good for healers).

Don't get focused in on the fact that an upgrade is a GOOD upgrade just because it has more of 1 or 2 stats that your current weapon doesn't have. I have seen a few rogues use Tanking swords as part of their dual equipment, and when asked about it, they reply that is has a "higher average DPS on the weapon", even though it has absoluetly no crit or hit that their old weapon did have.

[Eletharin]

Hit--->casters
Mp5--->healers

i know that blah blah blah Ring of the Darkmender heroic is pretty much BiS but tbh that a load of shit.

I hate this crap from the healer side. DPS who are hit capped can have all the Mp5 gear they want imo ... what benefits at least holy priests more is the spirit+SP+haste or crit gear. I understand DPS doesn't want the mp5 stuff, so they shout HEALER GEAR so loud healers gets stuck with clunky, non-optimized gear. Yes mp5 sucks for you .. but it can suck for us too since at high gear levels spirit regen is competitive and it grants other benefits through talents.

On topic to the OP ... whether its an upgrade to both of you shouldn't be the issue, it should be considering the other potential upgrades available to you (at least in a guild run). In a pug, upgrade is upgrade as long as you are staying in your armor class, your main spec, and not getting stats that are totally useless to you (+hit healers).

[simbuk]

To the OP: Your question has been answered satisfactorily...ad nauseam.

You've also made your point of view abundantly clear, and probably damaged your reputation in the process.

If I were you, I'd quit before digging myself any deeper.

[Azyoulike]

I hate this crap from the healer side. DPS who are hit capped can have all the Mp5 gear they want imo ... what benefits at least holy priests more is the spirit+SP+haste or crit gear.

Nobody is saying that MP5 gear is the only gear healers can take, any more than +hit gear is the only stuff DPS can take.

Healers can take anything, but have priority on MP5
DPS can take anything, but have priority on +hit

There's no reason for a holy priest to not get spirit gear with no hit, just as there's no reason for a disc priest not to get gear with no regen stats on at all.

But MP5 is a practically dead stat for casters-dps, just as +hit is practically a dead stat for healers.

[mrshadow]

mp5 is for hunters

[annomander999]

Our guild in general considers dps casters bidding on MP5 loot off-spec bidders.

And if im ML for a pug i consider caster dps rolling on MP5 gear off-spec, and will award HEALER items to healers primarily, and CASTER DPS items to caster dps.

OP go cry becuz you lossed yo' purples else where.

[Joarrak]

I find this an odd argument because hit is useless for healers and mp5 is nearly useless for dpsers, but yet somehow I find it fine for a dpser to roll on a mp5 wep yet not for a healer to roll on a hit wep. It really comes down to that both weapons will be upgrades for both dpsers and healers since it has higher spellpower, and then its up to the raid leader what they will do. In a pug I would say free roll on any upgrade, even if it could be a better upgrade for someone else since it is still an upgrade for you. But even with that most leaders will not let healers roll on weps with hit. There will never be an agreement on a fair way to do it.

[Deleted]

To the OP: Your question has been answered satisfactorily...ad nauseam.

You've also made your point of view abundantly clear, and probably damaged your reputation in the process.

If I were you, I'd quit before digging myself any deeper.

I ask questions like this because I like to hear other people's views on the subject, which inevitably ends up with me being called a troll and the like. Still, I do think that the topic is worth the responses, loot ranges and using more stats is a point which I hadn't thought considered.

[Zurth]

mp5 is for hunters

[XenofeiThrice]

The following has always been my train of thought as far as priority goes:

Mp5 = Healers
Hit = DPS

2H Weapons - Anybody but Hunters.
Bows - Hunters

I was in a ToC25 about a week ago, I'm still stuck with Journey's End(Feral kitty). Hunter bow drops from jaraxxus, the Hunter gets it unopposed, the raid leader specified no rogues/warriors to roll unless the hunter needed it.

We get to twins, Twin's Pact Drops. Myself and the other feral druid rolled, and the hunter rolled and beat both of us.


I hate the double standard with hunters, they QQ if a rogue rolls on a bow(which by all means they shouldn't as a bow is a hunters true Main Weapon), but hunters will roll over melee classes with no regret(at least on my server).


Also, as far as armor type goes, the whole BiS argument is getting old. You're letting some number crunching theorycrafters tell you what's best, half of them just forum theorize all day and don't actually play the game.

Some classes can only equip one type of armor, seeing a loot whore paladin roll on a piece of cloth is very irritating. I do blame blizzard though for poor itemization.

[Healsalot]

Reading this, 1 thing came to mind:

http://www.darklegacycomics.com/152.html

;D

[gamerguy19876]

OMG WHY SHOULD A TANK GET A WEAPON WITH 212 DPS JSUT COS IT HAS DEFENSE ON IT.....

Seriously tho, u fail if u use mp5 as dps

/agree

[Lilbwnr]

the dps shouldn't get it because he shouldn't have an item with mp5 on it to start with, end of story

[Marath]

The DPS shouldn't WANT to roll on it in the first place.

It was a healer weapon, I have spent pretty much all of wrath avoiding MP5 gear... it is a wasted stat for dps and I hate wasted stats. Why would you care anyway, there is a better caster weapon from Beasts 25 and if you cant get that then go for FC 10 man.

Stop sucking.

[maxout77]

So the DPS shouldn't get the item because the stat is mostly wasted, even if its a clear upgrade?

Exactly.

[Wheres]

Mp5 to a healer before a dps.

Mp5 to a DPS before a shard.

That is how it has always worked in my guild.

Caster DPS may not agree with this full heatedly. If you were to change that Mp5 into hit rating, casters would get awfully upset if healers were taking it over them. Certain items are ideal for certain classes. You don't like seeing pallies rolling on spirit wpns, and healers don't like seeing DPS roll on Mp5.

It really boils down to a question of respect. When this happens in an environment of guildies who have been together for months/years there is no question. The healer gets the Mp5 wpns first. If you don't know//respect who you are raiding with you tend to worry more about you rather than what is good for the guild//raid. Stop being selfish, by now you know what wpns are itemized for your class.

It would be similar to a hunter rolling on a 2h strength wpn and wanting it over a warrior/pally/dk. The item might be better than what the hunter is using, but it was not made for his class. It maximizes utility with other classes.

The strength--> Hunter may not be the best comparison.

If you flip it around, a weapon that is loaded with Attack Power and agility, should go to a hunter/druid before a warrior/retadin/dk. DK tanks aside (depends on the stats of the wpn). Yes, the wpn may be an upgrade and have stats that are in someway useful to a War/Ret/DK, but the wpn maximizes utility on a hunter/druid.

[Whoopsa]

A DPS caster using a 232 weapon with mp5 is obviously a baddie that either recently hit 80 or seriously thinks that more SP > all. "Random loot is random" for people that have been 80 for a while doesn't apply, a non-baddie would have done Ulduar to get a real weapon if it was taking that long for the drop.

TL;DR: Baddies don't get looted weapons.

[Molo]

A DPS caster using a 232 weapon with mp5 is obviously a baddie that either recently hit 80 or seriously thinks that more SP > all. "Random loot is random" for people that have been 80 for a while doesn't apply, a non-baddie would have done Ulduar to get a real weapon if it was taking that long for the drop.

TL;DR: Baddies don't get looted weapons.

Random loot IS Random.

I'm willing to be there's many casters still running OS25 for that Illustration everyone wants, but never drops. Point is: If you see DPS running around with a weapon with MP5 you should give him the benefit of the doubt. It's real easy to get hit capped without having a weapon with hit on it.

But yeah, doesn't mean there shouldn't be a priority when it comes to loot.

MP5: Healer > DPS > Off-spec
Hit: DPS > Healer > Off-spec
Crit/Haste: DPS/Healer > Off-spec

In PuGs: Highest roll wins. If you cry about a MP5 weapon going to DPS, then you should join a guild.

[enoesiw]

A DPS caster using a 232 weapon with mp5 is obviously a baddie that either recently hit 80 or seriously thinks that more SP > all. "Random loot is random" for people that have been 80 for a while doesn't apply, a non-baddie would have done Ulduar to get a real weapon if it was taking that long for the drop.

TL;DR: Baddies don't get looted weapons.

True story: I had the 10-Patchwerk blade until I got spectral kris because I couldn't raid for Ulduar. (the next TT was promised to me, but the only one that dropped in the 3mo before Uld was released went to some baddie when I missed a raid due to some random reason). Point: random loot IS random (even in Ulduar).

Sometimes mp5 weapons are all you get. As long as you don't get it over a healer, you're all good. Tbh, though, I'd rather take a 232 staff than a 232 mp5 weapon. mp5 is more or less a wasted stat on a dps.