Warlocks sabotaged by a ..... Warlock? wtf?

[anesmith]

So, today I check out MMO-Champ at work and see this:

Warlock (Forums / Talent Calculator)
Everlasting Affliction
Hotfix incoming. I can't give you a precise day or time. To be clear, when the dust settles for 3.3, both Shadow Bolt and Drain Soul will also count for Everlasting Affliction refreshing Corruption in addition to Haunt and Drain Life. (Source)

Warlocks AOE Spells
First thank you for posting, constructively. Our intent is for Seed of Corruption to be more attractive to Affliction, and Rain of Fire more attractive to Destruction. Before the flames begin, please note the word "intent". We realize that is not always the case, depending on numerous variables. (Source)

Curious as to what was said about my beloved Seed of Corruption I clicked on source and read this:

I'm a Destruction Warlock. I have been a Destruction Warlock for a very very long time. I thoroughly enjoy the mechanics of the Warlock class and the Destruction tree play style. When Affliction was the obviously dominant spec in early Wrath, I STILL only played Destruction and did without some raid invites because I don't particularly enjoy the Affliction play style. C'est la vie.

Therefore, I am confused about why, when I want to maximize AoE DPS, I am forced to use the obviously better Seed of Corruption, what seems to be an obvious Affliction-esque AoE spell.

This isn't a small difference. Rain of Fire hits for 1500-1800 per enemy and crits for around 3500-3800. Seed of Corruption, on the other hand, hits for 3000-3500 and crits for over 4500 most of the time. That's INSANE.

Let's ignore for a second that it's more annoying to use and focus on why a class spec that is generally focused on incinerating everything in its path is planting shadowy explosives in its enemies. I would much rather use Rain of Fire. Is it possible to have Destro talents that enhance Rain of Fire? For balance sake, let's say we "nerf" Seed of Corruption to bring it more in line with the damage of RoF. And then you have specific Affliction and Destro talents that enhance the damage of SoC and RoF respectively?

Is this possible? Right now I'm forced to use an annoying-to-cast spell that obviously does the most DPS or I can use the easier-to-cast spell that obviously does much less DPS. I don't like that choice. Or maybe I'm just doing it wrong? I dunno...

Hopefully I don't get blasted by the community for this. I'm not complaining about my AoE DPS, I just want to get the same DPS from a spell that fits my spec and preferred play style.

Thanks!

Now, I do not intend for this to be a QQ thread, but here are my thoughts on this. It is no secret that when playing a pure dps class, whether a Warlock, Rogue, Hunter or Mage, the top dps spec will, and does, vary from patch to patch. This requires serious raiders to research and switch to that highest dps spec to benefit their raid, or sit out .... If you are one of these people that say you "like" a specific dps tree and play style better than the others, and regardless of which spec is top atm, you are not switching from X spec, then that is fine, but accept your lower dps and STFU. Why would you make a post basically saying, "I would like for you to make it so that my dps is the same as the top spec, even though I do not have the skill/dedication to my raid/guild to change".

My other frustration with this is that this QQ post was honored with a blue post response. What was so special about this post? Of all the posts I see in the different forums, that are well thought out btw, why this one was responded to and possibly being considered as legit is beyond me. Seed of Corruption is NOT OP, it has simply made Warlocks competitive again in aoe mob dps. I spam seed in ICC and do great dps, but I am not #1, usually beaten by mage, DK's and the occasional Hunter or Rouge....

In the words of Ghostcrawler Mork.....L2Play!

[gherkin]

Seed is now the best AoE in the game on 5+ targets. It could use a slight nerf.

Rain of Fire has always needed a slight boost. Fire and Brimstone should affect it.

[Gerian]

Seed is now the best AoE in the game on 5+ targets. It could use a slight nerf.

Rain of Fire has always needed a slight boost. Fire and Brimstone should affect it.

Should be mentioned that RoF is still better damage per mana which has to be taken into consideration. I tried seed spam vs RoF on Anub last night and oomed myself by the first submerge.

[Sullimo]

OP... sounds like you're crying a bit there?

So the guy wants his Rain of Fire to be competitive, and he wants to play destruction because he prefers that playstyle to affliction? Good for him.

Why do you care? Do you really think that the "tops DPS spec" should vary from patch to patch and you should just continually respec to be the top dps spec or just be a "casual scrub" who lacks the dedication to their guild to constantly be changing their playstyle based on the design changes of blizzard?

Do you really not think it would be better to have all of the dps specs balanced and allow players to play the way they want to and achieve similar results?

Now, I do not intend for this to be a QQ thread

Then I don't know what you intended, because that is exactly what this thread is. Here is a tissue.

Should be mentioned that RoF is still better damage per mana which has to be taken into consideration. I tried seed spam vs RoF on Anub last night and oomed myself by the first submerge.

Welcome to WotLK, where efficiency doesn't matter.

Besides, you're a warlock... with this thing called Life Tap that essentially gives you infinite mana unless your healers hate you.

[Gerian]

Besides, you're a warlock... with this thing called Life Tap that essentially gives you infinite mana unless your healers hate you.

Time spent lifetapping = time not spent DPSing. Seriously, that argument is like saying healers have infinite mana if they stop healing and regen 1.5k every 5 seconds.

[Nurvus]

My other frustration with this is that this QQ post was honored with a blue post response. What was so special about this post? Of all the posts I see in the different forums, that are well thought out btw, why this one was responded to and possibly being considered as legit is beyond me. Seed of Corruption is NOT OP, it has simply made Warlocks competitive again in aoe mob dps. I spam seed in ICC and do great dps, but I am not #1, usually beaten by mage, DK's and the occasional Hunter or Rouge....

What I find odd is that you quote someone you didn't even bother to read thoroughly.

The Blizzard guy said "Our intent is for Seed of Corruption to be more attractive to Affliction, and Rain of Fire more attractive to Destruction."

The Destro lock from your quote said "For balance sake, let's say we "nerf" Seed of Corruption to bring it more in line with the damage of RoF. And then you have specific Affliction and Destro talents that enhance the damage of SoC and RoF respectively?"

Where are you reading that SoC is OP or needs to be nerfed? Nowhere...
What he meant was: nerf SoC to be on pair with RoF from base, but then bring SoC up again for Affliction, and bring RoF up for Destruction.
That means according to his wishes, you'd do as much SoC dmg as u do now, but his Destro RoF would be as good as your SoC.

This leads me to conclude that this post is indeed a blood-eyed QQ post, where you didn't even bother to get things straight and are just looking for someone to point your frustrated finger at.

[Deleted]

Re-read what he said again and take your time.

He wasn't crying about his chosen spec being left out of raids (initially), that is something he accepted, he just wants RoF to be better than SoC when speced destro, and SoC to be better than RoF when speced affli.

He wasn't asking for an outright nerf to SoC overall, just a nerf to the base spell and then buff it back up with talents in the affliction tree whilst buffing RoF with (more) talents in the destruction tree so that they are both at (what I presume to be) the level that SoC is at the moment.

This is something I would endorse too, as it does seem wrong that that there's very little thought in it now that SoC hits the target it's cast on too. Fire spell should be cast by fire spec.

[anesmith]

First of all, you are an angry little person...

So the guy wants his Rain of Fire to be competitive, and he wants to play destruction because he prefers that playstyle to affliction? Good for him.

Why do you care? Do you really think that the "tops DPS spec" should vary from patch to patch and you should just continually respec to be the top dps spec or just be a "casual scrub" who lacks the dedication to their guild to constantly be changing their playstyle based on the design changes of blizzard?

Do you really not think it would be better to have all of the dps specs balanced and allow players to play the way they want to and achieve similar results?

Your arguing apples and oranges, OF COURSE it would be better if you could just play any spec you wanted and achieve the same results in dps, BUT, that is not the game we play, never has been, never will be...So...YES I absolutely do think you have to do 1 of 2 things, #1 respec to the top dps spec OR #2 accept that your dps will be lower than other players of the same class...

Then I don't know what you intended, because that is exactly what this thread is. Here is a tissue.

My intent was to point out that if you are not willing to respec to the top dps spec, then your dps will be lower, and QQ will not help....not rocket science! As gherkin said, Fire and Brimstone should affect RoF which would increase it's dps, sounds great, but atm it is not the case.

What I find odd is that you quote someone you didn't even bother to read thoroughly.

The Blizzard guy said "Our intent is for Seed of Corruption to be more attractive to Affliction, and Rain of Fire more attractive to Destruction."

The Destro lock from your quote said "For balance sake, let's say we "nerf" Seed of Corruption to bring it more in line with the damage of RoF. And then you have specific Affliction and Destro talents that enhance the damage of SoC and RoF respectively?"

Where are you reading that SoC is OP or needs to be nerfed? Nowhere...
What he meant was: nerf SoC to be on pair with RoF from base, but then bring SoC up again for Affliction, and bring RoF up for Destruction.
That means according to his wishes, you'd do as much SoC dmg as u do now, but his Destro RoF would be as good as your SoC.

This leads me to conclude that this post is indeed a blood-eyed QQ post, where you didn't even bother to get things straight and are just looking for someone to point your frustrated finger at.

Re-read what he said again and take your time.

He wasn't crying about his chosen spec being left out of raids (initially), that is something he accepted, he just wants RoF to be better than SoC when speced destro, and SoC to be better than RoF when speced affli.

He wasn't asking for an outright nerf to SoC overall, just a nerf to the base spell and then buff it back up with talents in the affliction tree whilst buffing RoF with (more) talents in the destruction tree so that they are both at (what I presume to be) the level that SoC is at the moment.

This is something I would endorse too, as it does seem wrong that that there's very little thought in it now that SoC hits the target it's cast on too. Fire spell should be cast by fire spec.

True, I admit I flew off the handle a bit here, I am all about RoF and SoC being redone with talents, but I have read so many posts with folks QQ'ing about their dps, when they are not keeping up with the current patch top dps spec.... My overall point was respec or accept it...

[Andymion]

I also think that RoF needs more boosts from destruction talents. I dont see this in anyway as sabatoge unless they nerf SoC in order to make RoF more attractive.

[Sullimo]

Time spent lifetapping = time not spent DPSing. Seriously, that argument is like saying healers have infinite mana if they stop healing and regen 1.5k every 5 seconds.

Time spent with 0 mana = time spent not DPSing. If you burn all of your mana on a spell, you can get it back by lifetapping. Are you not dpsing during those life taps? Sure, but you wouldn't be dpsing without that mana either.

Yea you could say healer have infinite mana if they don't do anything, but that's not exactly the same. Every class has infinite resources if they don't do anything.

First of all, you are an angry little person...

If you want to try and throw out insults, I think you're an idiot.

Fire and Brimstone should affect RoF which would increase it's dps, sounds great, but atm it is not the case.

So then you are agreeing with the person you are originally arguing against by saying that both trees should have a talent that improves their respective AOE?

Saying respec highest dps spec for current patch or accept your dps will be lower is a cop out - instead, come up with intelligent feedback to the developer on how they can balance dps across specs, like the guy you quoted.

Interestingly you act like this warlock you're quoting is the one sabotaging other warlocks, when you're the one saying "other warlocks should just respec to the #1 spec in patches or STFU"... sounds like you're the one doing the real "sabotaging".

[gherkin]

If you want to try and throw out insults, I think you're an idiot.

Your original post sounded very angry, but he did call you little.

Time spent with 0 mana = time spent not DPSing. If you burn all of your mana on a spell, you can get it back by lifetapping. Are you not dpsing during those life taps? Sure, but you wouldn't be dpsing without that mana either.

I'm not going to run the numbers here, but there can be a case made that X Damage from Rain of Fire is similar to Y damage from Seed of Corruption MINUS dps lost from additional Life Taps to recoup mana costs.

It depends on the situation. I'm Affliction and still have ROF on my bars.

[Bakis]

Seed cost so much mana, the warlock will go oom before everyone is dead so I often see a hunter and the god almighty war or dk out damage me simply cos I need to LT

[gherkin]

Seed cost so much mana, the warlock will go oom before everyone is dead so I often see a hunter and the god almighty war or dk out damage me simply cos I need to LT

I tell druids to innervate me on trash so I can hit 13k dps and make the Unholy DK's cry.

[Sullimo]

Your original post sounded very angry, but he did call you little.
I'm not going to run the numbers here, but there can be a case made that X Damage from Rain of Fire is similar to Y damage from Seed of Corruption MINUS dps lost from additional Life Taps to recoup mana costs.

It depends on the situation. I'm Affliction and still have ROF on my bars.

If I came across as angry, my apologies.

I agree it's possible the numbers could be worked to determine if it's worthwhile, but I'll leave that to someone who is more interested in those kinds of things. All I'm trying to say is that if someone wants to AoE as Afflicition with SoC, and another person prefers AoEing as Destruction with Rain of Fire, they should be able to get similar results and a perfect means to that end would be talents in the respective trees propping up the preferred AoE for that spec.

I do not agree that a person should have to respec every patch to the highest dps spec or just STFU and deal with it, instead we should be making suggestions that allow people of equal skill to achieve similar results playing differently.

I tell druids to innervate me on trash so I can hit 13k dps and make the Unholy DK's cry.

;D

[gherkin]

I think the highest dps spec should change every patch, because otherwise I will play Affliction for the rest of time, and a change of pace is always good.
The lowest dps spec should not become SO MUCH LOWER than every other spec available, which I believe is the root of the problem.

And AoE should be included in talents so we don't have destro locks seeding or arcane mages blizzarding or Shadow Priests specing into Holy Nova.

[scandore8472]

QQing about AoE is pathetic.

If you're destro, and THAT worried about AoE, shadow flame + RoF. I regularly pull about 10-15k on Ony whelps by doing this. But seriously, who really gives a flying F about trash AoE?

[Screwtape]

QQing about AoE is pathetic.

If you're destro, and THAT worried about AoE, shadow flame + RoF. I regularly pull about 10-15k on Ony whelps by doing this. But seriously, who really gives a flying F about trash AoE?

I think Freya and Anub 25 Heroic would disagree.

[gherkin]

QQing about AoE is pathetic.

If you're destro, and THAT worried about AoE, shadow flame + RoF. I regularly pull about 10-15k on Ony whelps by doing this. But seriously, who really gives a flying F about trash AoE?

15-30 whelps vs 4 Adds + Boss on the hardest fight in the game? Really?

[gherkin]

Jesus, some of you people are trying to put it out there like Warlocks are built like other classes as far as mana regen AND have Life Tap. It's not the case. Warlocks have Life Tap to put them on par.

Which is why our spells at base cost more than other classes, to compensate for not having mana issues. Shadow Bolt is 17%, and Fireball is 19%, but 17% of 3856 Base Warlock mana is 656 mana, vs 19% of 3268 Base Mage mana is 620 mana. All of our spells cost more, and this is fact, not complaints. We are built around flaunting our excessive mana consumption.

However Life Tap is not damage, and time spent not casting is lost time. Therefore the argument isn't about mana, or AOE damage, but rather the fact that Destruction Warlocks can do more damage using a non-fire spell. We get side tracked with the mana cost of Seed vs the lesser damage of Rain of Fire, or the greater damage of Seed vs the lesser cost of Rain of Fire, but the issue is still the same - AOE is not spec dependant, we all use the same "rules" for determining which to use by default, due to the current numbers on both spells.

[Ragnarokex]

im destro and i use seed to aoe.. its fun, it works and i dont care for rain of fire much anymore..

end of thread.