Paladin needing an Innervate?

[highslime]

Ok here's the deal.. I'm a feral druid (cat) who is almost always asked to Innervate one (or both) of our Holy Paladins. I have NEVER before seen (or heard) a pally cry for an innervate. It's gotten to the point that I'm rather sick and tired of doing it, because from what I understand, there's like a zillion ways for a paladin to regen mana. I'd like to be able to tell them to fuck off and L2P, but I'd like some information to back up my disdain of being asked to Innervate a class that (in my experience) SHOULDN'T need one. About the only things I know of that a pally should (or can?) use are Seal of Wisdom, Judge Wisdom, and Divine Plea combined with Avenging Wrath. Basically what I'm asking you guys is... prevent me from having to research another class and help me out with some pro tips on how to not be a fail paladin so I can go back to properly shredding backside.

[ysoly]

if a paladin asks a innervate he either died or isnt using his Cd's correctly

[kungfumonkey]

So basically you are complaining that the pallys are being lazy and not using the abilitys they have (i.e. divineplea etc) because you want to be lazy and not use the abilities you have (i.e. innervate)

You are right that in normal circumstances pally healer should not need an innervate but sometimes they may, sometimes they may forget to use there mana regen or get carried away..

To put it in a way more relevent to you as a dps.. Do shammy's complain when they are asked to use heroism / bloodlust.. hey any dps should be able to do decent dps without it anyway but sometimes it makes the run easier for everyone. Do pallys complain when they are asked to buff kings on everyone.. again another one you can live without.

[Firecrest]

A bunch of the people above me are saying that any Pally that wants an Innervate is immediately bad. This is not true. Honestly, I would love it if I could get our Ferals to Innervate me on CD. It'd be amazing. But I don't need it. I just want it. Generally Innervates can be better used on mana restricted DPS classes like Arcane Mages.

There are a few times when I do need an Innervate though. Fights where the tank gets wrecked for extended periods of time are one. Or fights where there are few (or no) safe places for me to Plea. We had an Innervate rotation down for our early HM Anub kills that facilitated me being able to do something like 25k HPS for three minutes in P3. The other time I find myself needing Innervates is when I'm carrying a PUG group. When I'm doing more healing than the next two healers combined, there's a good chance it got kinda dicey in there at some point.

That said, outside of a few situations, Holy Pallies should not be calling for many Innervates. Especially not so often as to irritate the Druids enough to make them come post about it.

They should be be stacking Int like freaking wo. If you're raiding things like full clear HM 25 TotGC and the second wing of 25 ICC, your Holy Pallies should have no less than 30k unbuffed mana (and this assumes that one of their trinkets is a Solace). If they're using two Int trinkets they should be nearer to 34k unbuffed, minimum. If the content you're in is easier, then obviously the mana pools can go down from there.

The high Int facilitates the three main ways we get mana back during a fight. The majority of our regen comes from replenishment. Make sure you have enough of this in your raid. Things get rough for a Holy Pally without it. A close second is Divine Plea. It is powerful as hell, but good Pallies gear and play in such a way as to avoid using it as much as possible as it comes with a 50% reduction to our healing for 15 seconds. The third way we regen mana is by taking melee swings at the boss. 10-15 seconds of swinging at a boss is enough to get a Holy Pally from zero mana to full. Obviously, you don't want to do that often - rather just swing for 3-4 seconds here and there as possible.

Checklist for Pallies struggling with mana (no particular order):

1) Stack Int. You should have a +20 Int gem in almost every socket.
2) Use Glyph of Seal of Wisdom. Run with Seal of Wisdom up.
3) Use Libram of Renewal.
4) Plea when appropriate. This means managing your mana in such a way that if you know it's a fight that's going to stress your pool, that you Plea early on. The best times to Plea are often within the first minute or two of the fight when you don't actually need the mana yet and the shit hasn't hit the fan.
5) Make sure you're getting replenishment.
6) Gear for MP5 over Crit. MP5 now gives more than double the mana return of a similar item level of Crit.

If you provide armory links, I can probably give you much more specific advice dependent on your progression level and each Pally's gearing and speccing.

[Eats Compost]

So basically you are complaining that the pallys are being lazy and not using the abilitys they have (i.e. divineplea etc) because you want to be lazy and not use the abilities you have (i.e. innervate)

I can assure you, if you're feral and have to innervate someone, you're losing a chunk of your DPS, which might matter on some DPS-intensive fights (Festergut). This can be completely circumvented by the Paladin not being bad (in most situations).

One solution has downsides, the other doesn't.

[dazline]

let me guess...your a dps with no raid frames so you sped 5 minutes running around looking for your paladni to innervate, so your dps is bad and your tired of being called out on it?? was i close?? Paladins shouldnt need the mana but if they do then whats ur issues. put it on a side bar...dump ur energy, target and cast innervate and then back to cat form.. such a hard life ^.^

[Sabitharan]

Dev. Plea reduces all healing done by 50%. I think i'd rather have a druid inervate then reduce the effectiveness of their heals by half just for 25% of their mana.

[Tandellon]

I play a holy paladin, and if there is a druid (or more) in the raid, I'll ask for Innervate. Depending on the boss fight and other healers I'll run with in a given group I might not exactly trust certain healers to do their job so I'll do a bit of "sniping". Algalon for example, as a Paladin naturally I'd heal the tanks, but depending on what other healers I'm running with I'd beacon the current tank, and drop HL bombs on raid members after stars die to avoid an insta-jib from a constellation/cosmic smash. When spamming HL I can go OOM quickly and if I have doubts about the capabilities of the other healers, I'll ask for Innervate along with my Divine Plea, just for precautions.

[dazline]

I can assure you, if you're feral and have to innervate someone, you're losing a chunk of your DPS, which might matter on some DPS-intensive fights (Festergut). This can be completely circumvented by the Paladin not being bad (in most situations).

One solution has downsides, the other doesn't.

so your completely ignoring how healing intense alot of these fights are? and just tunnel vision your dps?? 2 gcd's ever 3 minutes...qq

also most of your feral dps is what? bleeds and combo point building attacks...

[brettizzle]

Dev. Plea reduces all healing done by 50%. I think i'd rather have a druid inervate then reduce the effectiveness of their heals by half just for 25% of their mana.

Plea pop wings and a trinket problem solved

[Simca]

Dev. Plea reduces all healing done by 50%. I think i'd rather have a druid inervate then reduce the effectiveness of their heals by half just for 25% of their mana.

That's probably one of the dumbest statements I've ever heard. If you've played a holy paladin, you know that the amount healed matters for little when using Holy Light. The -50% is something serious, but then you realize you're popping trinkets and AW during it, and it then becomes around -30% healing (more like -10% healing if you have 2p T10) which you will barely notice. If you need innervates, you're really undergeared or are doing it wrong or are taking on way more than your role and are picking up all the weight of the other healers as mentioned above (this can happen in pugs and with other not-so-great healers).

[highslime]

Ok, I'll address a few things here. First and foremost, Firecrest I appreciate the information you supplied, it's been more informative than the other posts here, thank you for that.

Secondly, as someone already mentioned, having to stop what I'm doing and innervate someone who in most circumstances SHOULDN'T NEED IT does hurt my dps. No, I've never been called out on it, and yes, I use raid frames.

Sure, I'm probably bitching about something minor... but at the same time it's pretty damn irksome.

[Rhinni]

let me guess...your a dps with no raid frames so you sped 5 minutes running around looking for your paladni to innervate, so your dps is bad and your tired of being called out on it?? was i close?? Paladins shouldnt need the mana but if they do then whats ur issues. put it on a side bar...dump ur energy, target and cast innervate and then back to cat form.. such a hard life ^.^

bad troll... is bad.

[Firecrest]

Plea pop wings and a trinket problem solved

Except, of course, that the effects of both of these are halved as well. Even with both up, you'll still be running at ~67% capacity.

[dazline]

Plea pop wings and a trinket problem solved

so a 3min/2min cd to counter act a 1 min cd debuff hmmmmmm.

[Eats Compost]

so your completely ignoring how healing intense alot of these fights are? and just tunnel vision your dps?? 2 gcd's ever 3 minutes...qq

also most of your feral dps is what? bleeds and combo point building attacks...

First of all, I said "in most circumstances". If you're dealing with a healing intensive fight, of course things will change. You're treating me as if I'd make the assumption that because normal fights don't use Mind Control, it shouldn't be used on Razuvious.

Even then, in a healing-intensive fight, aren't the non-Paladin healers going to go OOM before the Paladin healers, thus meaning the Paladins won't be the ones getting the innervate(s) anyway? My doesn't-need-innervate-in-most-circumstances comment was aimed squarely at Paladins.

What's more, downtime is downtime. It's a DPS loss, and if you're dealing with a boss with strictly tuned DPS requirements, it matters. Some classes can be harmed more greatly by downtime than others, for example, losing a rampup in the form of a buff/debuff that'll tick off.

[Simca]

so a 3min/2min cd to counter act a 1 min cd debuff hmmmmmm.

A lot of fights have phase transitions or downtime you can pop divine plea in as well. Putricide being the most recent example, just time out right before he stuns the raid and activate DP.

[SchickySC]

No, popping wings with plea DOESN'T solve the problem. It partially reduces the healing loss once, maybe twice.

Pally's getting an innervate is completely fine on progression content if:

A) You have a good number of druids in the raid
B) Your on heavy tank damage fights
C) That pally is carrying weaker tank healers
D) Divine plea isn't a guarantee (can't risk the -healing)
E) Can't get in melee range for most of the fight
F) DPS die and the fight lasts longer than expected
G) Healers die and my HPS needs to be increased

I commonly have a feral druid macro his innervate to me, early in the fight. With a 3 min cooldown it can be used 2-3 times.

For me, (C) is very common. I run with another paladin that despite my advice, will not play/gem/gear properly.

All classes have their regen. Shams have their mana tide/water shield. Priests have their fiend/hymm. Druids have their innervates.

I will never ask a resto druid for their innervate. That's their own.

[highslime]

Yeah, when I'm asked to Innervate someone, they don't get it unless all of my debuffs are on the target.

I was looking at some WoL reports... the individual I have issues with... used Divine Illumination 10 times, and Divine Plea 24x over a ~3 hour session. And in the buffs gained, I see no Avenging Wrath used, which could be a contributing factor.

[Pascal]

I can see why ferals could get all uppity about using their innervate, since you can't cast it in cat form. I personally hate when bads die because they're idiots and I have to rez them. That's probably more annoying than the paladin that asks for innervates in my guild.

However, I still can't really defend your side of the argument. If you pump more mana into your healers, they can do more healing with more leeway and you're benefiting the raid a lot more than your couple of lost DPS seconds. If it's a healing intensive fight (like hard modes or Festergut or whatever) then you should be ashamed of yourself quite frankly. If it's just bullshit trash bosses that you've had on farm or weeks, then 1.) I don't see why your lost DPS is such a big concern, but also 2.) the paladins should be more responsible.

I severely doubt your paladins are scraping their mana pool dry due to inexperience or healing incorrectly (in most situations) and they probably just love the mana buffer innervate gives. We had our healers running dry during the first few weeks we did hard mode NRB, which is completely understandable and if your situation is similar to that, like I said, you should feel bad for being so selfish.

One of our feral druids loves giving out his innervate and he'll often do it without even being asked. I'm tempted to believe you're just a bit whiny.