Agility Vs Attack Power

[Synfultouch]

So heres my Armory: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...&n=Synfultouch

Heres my problem, I've been reading up alot about the Agility vs Attack Power since 3.3 Release and the removal of rupture from the Mutilate Rotation. Heres my question I'm unsure if its related to my gear set-up or what.

Yes I know my gears nothing to brag about, but I'm doing about 300 more dps gemming Agility still then I am gemming pure ap. I'm opening with garrote popping HFB, pooling my energy back up to about 85 - 90 % hitting SND popping muti to about 4 - 5 combo points and envenoming my ass off keeping HFB/SnD up.

So whats the deal with gemming AP over Agility. I'm not seeing anything, but a decrease in my DPS with AP gems versus Agility.

Someone help me out here with the numbers.

[Synfultouch]

If your wondering why I still have AP gems in my chest its cause I ran out of gold. I spend a shit ton just to see how AP would affect my dps over agility and as you have read above I ended up losing about 300 dps on average gemming AP over Agility.

[Razorlor]

AP all the way, no question about it.

[Synfultouch]

Wheres the numbers to prove it? :-\

[sarius]

I barely know about this numbers game either, I read up now and then, try and be a decent player, but I guess by a long stretch I'm not the best.

Still,.. As far as I know, for mutilate these days, haste and AP are your best things available. I never understood why AP is better than agil, as you can see on my armoury too my (245 and lower) gear is all agil socketed, but with 3.3 out, all my gear from now on will be AP + Haste gems instead of Agil + Crit gems. (Need to update my cloak with AP, put agil in by force of habbit)

Discussing it with another rogue in my guild, he basically summed it up to;

"Poison damage"

that attack power will contribute more to the instant poison damage, so if you can stack it up enough, and you have enough haste, eventually your poisons damage will do more than your melee.

When you have average / decent gear like we currently have, it barely makes a difference, if not worse to go AP and haste. But once you start building up a lot of decent gear, you'll notice your melee attacks aren't benefitting as much as your poisons, and having fast, high damage poisons would be greater than regular critting normal hits.

Or at least that's the simple mans way I've picked up so far. If I'm wrong, I too will be interested to see some counter points / numbers / proof.

[Synfultouch]

Makes me wonder with my gear set-up if I should still consolidate rupture into my rotation versus Envenom...

[Synfultouch]

Seems like the AP/Haste set-up is geared more towards higher ilvl gear rather then t9.

[Deleted]

The crit you get from agility is melee-crit and does not apply to your poisons.

Since a very large portion of your damage as mutilate is from poisons alone, stacking AP is more beneficial than agility.

[Synfultouch]

Then explain to me the dps loss by stacking AP versus Agility with my current set-up. I understand that AP contributes to poison damage. Its apperent at lower ilvl gear its not very beneficial at the moment.

[Giigamesh]

im not sure, but there's a point where instant becomes better then wound, meaning there needs to be some kind of point where you switch. i remember reading on EJ something about a certain amount of AP...idk, search function would probably work better then my ramblings....

[ant1pathy]

Tests done on dummies don't reflect raid situations. Tests done in raid situations fluctuate due to RNG and available buffs. Trust your spreadsheet and save yourself the gold.

[Adhd]

Wheres the numbers to prove it? :-\

No need for numbers, when i changed from Agi gems to AP gems my dps increased by around 300 (on dummy, unbuffed).

[Purelybetter]

Wheres the numbers to prove it? :-\

same to you

[n33b0wner3]

No need for numbers, when i changed from Agi gems to AP gems my dps increased by around 300 (on dummy, unbuffed).

So you say "No need for numbers" . Then right after that you gave a number ?

[elapadrinar]

Tests done on dummies don't reflect raid situations. Tests done in raid situations fluctuate due to RNG and available buffs. Trust your spreadsheet and save yourself the gold.

Testing the most buff dependent class/spec without buffs is pointless, end of story. Listen to this guy.^^^^^ How exactly are you guys keeping hfb on these dummy tests?

[d34thangel]

i've always had a couple people help with my dummy tests, i have them attack the dummy, like a warrior to keep up bleeds, a shaman to drop totems, and so on

though, i normally just do em by my self,

[Shadowtrans]

Ok, I don't really have that much of a clue about rogues but after I read what you guys posted here this is what I think:
-AP becomes better for muti at a certain point due to the changes in 3.3
-Deadly poison at 5 stacks makes the other poison proc instead of proccing itseld (was done to eliminate the need of an addon that swapped your OH (From Wound MH/Deadly OH for combat) to Wound/Wound and than change it back to Wound/Deadly for a DPS gain. The game does that automatically without switching the weapons.
-Instant was viable for combat with a certain spec but it would eliminate some other talents ending up in a low DPS upgrade in specific gear.
-Poison damage stacks directly with you attack power.
-The more haste you have, the faster you will attack
-> The faster you attack you get more instant poisons procs from your 1.4OH(Instant MH/Deadly OH)and mutilate specs have the increase by 50% instant apply rate. Evenom does not consume deadly anymore and increases the rate at which poisons apply (Both deadly and instant will apply faster and with the change deadly will apply a 2nd instant)
-Poisons are considered spells so they get no benefit at all from Armor Pen but the benefit from: CoE(13% spell damage), Scorch,etc (5% crit), Misery(3%hit) and all the other things that affect spells.


So in the end you want to get as much haste and attack power as possible, a 1.4 speed OH and only 5 combo points Evenoms so you will apply Instant poison at an insane rate and dealing a crapton of damage.

That's what I could think of after 5 mins of brainstorming. Am I a good wannabe rogue or a bad troll ?;p

[Veno]

Agi is better until you start having problems with the crit cap. Which should happen with 264 gear.

[Voij]

Ok, I don't really have that much of a clue about rogues but after I read what you guys posted here this is what I think:
-AP becomes better for muti at a certain point due to the changes in 3.3
-Deadly poison at 5 stacks makes the other poison proc instead of proccing itseld (was done to eliminate the need of an addon that swapped your OH (From Wound MH/Deadly OH for combat) to Wound/Wound and than change it back to Wound/Deadly for a DPS gain. The game does that automatically without switching the weapons.
-Instant was viable for combat with a certain spec but it would eliminate some other talents ending up in a low DPS upgrade in specific gear.
-Poison damage stacks directly with you attack power.
-The more haste you have, the faster you will attack
-> The faster you attack you get more instant poisons procs from your 1.4OH(Instant MH/Deadly OH)and mutilate specs have the increase by 50% instant apply rate. Evenom does not consume deadly anymore and increases the rate at which poisons apply (Both deadly and instant will apply faster and with the change deadly will apply a 2nd instant)
-Poisons are considered spells so they get no benefit at all from Armor Pen but the benefit from: CoE(13% spell damage), Scorch,etc (5% crit), Misery(3%hit) and all the other things that affect spells.


So in the end you want to get as much haste and attack power as possible, a 1.4 speed OH and only 5 combo points Evenoms so you will apply Instant poison at an insane rate and dealing a crapton of damage.

That's what I could think of after 5 mins of brainstorming. Am I a good wannabe rogue or a bad troll ?;p

Close to a good wannabe, but I'd say so far only a wannabe. :P
4+ CP envenoms, Mutilating at 4 CP is a damage waste.
Instant is still viable for Combat, actually regardless of spec. [15/51/5 favors IP/DP aswell as 20/51/0 does.]
The new Combat spec is a lot better than the old one, tbh.
AP is pretty much better in general for Mutilate, only exception might be if you're still wearing 4pc T8.

Agi is better until you start having problems with the crit cap. Which should happen with 264 gear.

Wrong, or rather, not specific enough. AP is usually better for Mutilate, even when only having 245 gear, even if you've still got a lot of ArP on your 245 gear[300+].
AP might be better for Combat, but in general Combat favors ArP anyways.

[rmxsflz]

Well my rogue has about 1000 agility and deals a ton of damage that would not be possibe with attackpower's value. Attackpower becomes quite useless when your using daggers since you want attack SPEED instead of big slow damage (burst > bulk). Started looking into strengh since it gives me slightly more survivability on encounters (trouble with deathwhsiper aoe/ghosts - keep dieing), so now i socket alot of my reds with bold cardinal ruby. This not only gives me the survivability and power i need, i am also meeting socket requirements and doing much higher dps as a result of it.

another tip i've found dandy is using different weapon types since swords benefit more tham agility and dggers attackpower. by using one of each (or a spec gearset) i am able to capatalise dps on both. my current setup is mace mainhand and sword offhand so i'm using a spec that gives advantages to both weapon types: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#fGx00exZMxhzxfVqrz0xoZcb