10 Things Wrong With Your Holy Pally's Armory

[mypally]

the meta needs 1 of each gem.

nightmares = 1 socket, 10 int with another socket +20 int, you get +30 int in 2 sockets.

otherwise, you need 2 sockets, let's say, 10 int and 5 mp5, 10 int and 12 sp gems. so you get total 20 int, and 5mp5, 12sp

sp not good for pally, overhealing too much already. FoL is not optimal raiding spec, just like raid as frost mage.

or you could gem 1 red/blue (is this really that odd of a suggestion?)???? also, if you gemmed for any socket bonuses with red or blue, it would be better not to use the tier. Im not an expert, but its not like spellpower is given strength like values here.

[Claym]

I was well aware of roughly what it gave holy pallies, but actual numbers help. First off, saying it gives 121 int is kinda pointless, and mathematically confusing, since if 100 int gives 121 int, then shouldn't that 121 int give even more int, eventually we can say 1 int gives infinite int ;D

Anyway, dividing by 10 we get relevant numbers. So a nightmare tier offers 10 int, and no other useful stats, so basically I need to prove that a red/blue gem gives more value then 10 int. I'm assuming the most useful blue/red epic gem would be 15 SP/ 5 Mp5.

The 10 int from the tier gives:
181 Mana
6.21 Mp5
2.53 SP
.0759% Crit

Vs 15 SP/5Mp5

So if im reading this right (and im no expert) then you are saying that 1.21 Mp5 is worth roughly 12 SP and .0759% crit. If that is true, then what the op said stands (it does not take into consideration if someone gemmed a blue or red socket earlier for a bonus, which would then enable someone to gem an int + other colour gem, which would obviously be better)

Of course if the bonus is worth it (which is subjective, everyone is geared differently) then you take it. As I said before, if you're deficient in an area you should focus on it. SP is a pretty crap stat for a Holy Pally after a certain point. As another poster above me noted, overhealing is already a huge portion of the output. There comes a point when increasing SP does nothing for your effective healing, so gemming for it is pointless (just like a DPS gemming beyond the hit cap, except this cap isn't set in stone). Once you are at that point in SP, it's more beneficial to be sure that you're able to keep casting longer (which int can do for you), than to increase the amount of healing that's not hitting the target.

Does this make more sense? You should always use your head for what you notice your character needing, and most of the time you'll have acquired all the SP you really need from your gear and enchants such that you can just ignore it when gemming and allow that to be how you increase your endurance.

[Firecrest]

don't forget twice as expensive, twice as powerful and one hundred times as likely to be mostly overheal

It is more expensive and more prone to overheal, but it is like 3x more powerful and can easily be spammed without OOMing. What's the downside?

[Firecrest]

I agree with everything except two things:

1) Speccing into the ret tree is preferred if you're a holy light spammer, straight crit is straight crit. Spec into prot if you're a fol spammer. Divinity is about the only thing worth it, if you're a HL'er. Also if you're the only pally and have no shammies or rogues, heart of the crusader (in the ret tree) is worth it's weight in gold to your raid.

2) Crit > mp5 no matter which spammer you are. If you spam HL, again you need that crit for mana regen. Mp5 for fol spammers doesn't really matter much with the efficiency of fol.

False and false. Seriously?

For like the billionth time... CRIT IS TERRIBLE TERRIBLE MANA REGEN. TERRIBLE.

Who the hell raids with one Holy Pally and zero Shaman? That's doesn't even make sense.

[apokteino]

False and false. Seriously? For like the billionth time... CRIT IS TERRIBLE TERRIBLE MANA REGEN. TERRIBLE.

It's ironic that you would say this, because you want me to fill out Holy Power. Also, right now given my current crit % and my regular healing style, 1% crit gives me ~16mp5. Roughly this means 3 crit rating = 1 mp5. The gear itemization for crit rating to mp5 is 2:1. The difference in regen is (in my opinion) all but negligible due to the fact that the vast majority of my mana is coming from Divine Plea and replenishment. Also, as I gain higher amounts of crit and use more HLs per minute, the mana returns from crit is going to increase. I can feasibly see myself looking through my combat log one day and realizing that in regards to mana regen, crit has finally caught up to mp5.

[nwgminion]

You forgot one
#11- You arent wearing enough Mail. F#^k the Resto Shamans.
All your Haste/ MP5 gear belongs to us.

But seriously, Firecrest is 100% accurate on these ten points and if you disagree you probably haven't cleared many hardmodes.

[apokteino]

9) You have not properly coordinated your spec with the rest of your raid. Obviously, I cannot tell if this is the case just by looking at Armory. But I try to point out situations where it may exist. The biggest one I see is Holy Pallies running with 3/3 Imp Devo Aura. The chances of you actually needing this are very slim. Resto Druids and Prot Pallies both provide the same healing bonus and it does not stack. You should also coordinate Imp BoW and Imp Conc Aura with your raid's other Holt Pally, if you have one.

Also, you miss the point of having Imp Devo Aura. It isn't for increasing the healing done but rather increasing the tanks armor and therefore EH. If you are in a 25 man raiding guild and don't have a prot pally, I would strongly consider picking this up. It's much more valuable than 3% crit in my opinion.

inb4 someone tries to say it doesn't stack with Stoneskin Totems. It does.

[lyraorpheus]

I agree with everything except two things:

1) Speccing into the ret tree is preferred if you're a holy light spammer, straight crit is straight crit. Spec into prot if you're a fol spammer. Divinity is about the only thing worth it, if you're a HL'er. Also if you're the only pally and have no shammies or rogues, heart of the crusader (in the ret tree) is worth it's weight in gold to your raid.

2) Crit > mp5 no matter which spammer you are. If you spam HL, again you need that crit for mana regen. Mp5 for fol spammers doesn't really matter much with the efficiency of fol.

Spec into the ret tree is preferred if you're not raider. Spec into prot if you're raider.

It seems you only run heroic, no rogue, shaman in raid? it's very rare, probably not gonna happen in guild 25m.

and mp5 > crit if you cast FoL, even in TBC when we had 60% mana back from crit, mp5 > crit for FoL. Most FoL paladins failed, they were probably carried through by guild but eventually owned by brutallus. you probably never gonna understand what I say.

just like the day I joined a random heroic with my offspec tank. They said, you are bad tank, get stamina gems instead of defense gems in all your sockets.

Here is the question, you know why all defense gems in sockets?

any holy paladins have passed brutallus pre 3.0 are certificated.

at lvl 60, we cast FoL, stack mp5

at lvl 70, we cast HL, stack crit

at lvl 80, we cast HL, stack int

[jonny1313]

That's doesn't even make sense.

Quoted for being ironic in your statement :P

[Lydian]

Spec into the ret tree is preferred if you're not raider. Spec into prot if you're raider.

It seems you only run heroic, no rogue, shaman in raid? it's very rare, probably not gonna happen in guild 25m.

and mp5 > crit if you cast FoL, even in TBC when we had 60% mana back from crit, mp5 > crit for FoL. Most FoL paladins failed, they were probably carried through by guild but eventually owned by brutallus. you probably never gonna understand what I say.

just like the day I joined a random heroic with my offspec tank. They said, you are bad tank, get stamina gems instead of defense gems in all your sockets.

Here is the question, you know why all defense gems in sockets?

any holy paladins have passed brutallus pre 3.0 are certificated.

at lvl 60, we cast FoL, stack mp5

at lvl 70, we cast HL, stack crit

at lvl 80, we cast HL, stack int

Wasn't a holypally but was the healing classleader for the entire swp pre3.0 (got kj down 1 week prenerf HURRAH).
And you're 100% right, FoL was fun at 60 since youd die from oomage if you wouldnt.
But brutallus on a tank with stomp, LETS CAST FOL AND SEE DEATH DDD
FoL doesnt cut it anymore, its not bad for heroics/easy stuff, but being able to spam HL, having enough int to sustain it but not hauncing it too much to fuck ur SP up, is the key.

[jonny1313]

Spec into the ret tree is preferred if you're not raider. Spec into prot if you're raider.

It seems you only run heroic, no rogue, shaman in raid? it's very rare, probably not gonna happen in guild 25m.

and mp5 > crit if you cast FoL, even in TBC when we had 60% mana back from crit, mp5 > crit for FoL. Most FoL paladins failed, they were probably carried through by guild but eventually owned by brutallus. you probably never gonna understand what I say.

The lack of a shammy or rogue has happened from time to time in my 10 mans, but minor examples are minor. I almost never see a fol pally have mana issues. Why they would forgo the healing increases that crit has to offer as opposed to more healing capabilities is beyond me. By all means explain it, on a serious note please do. "you probably never gonna understand what I say." ~ twas simply uncalled for, at least use proper grammar if you're going to insult me for having a differing opinion.

[roboscorcher]

with full raid buff, my FoL is about 0.9 sec and holy light is 1.25 sec. cast times are twice as long as FoL?????

Like I said earlier, I was speaking about my cast times with FoL gear.

and your FoL is weak, no matter how much sp you stack, your FoL crit will not be more than non-crit holy light. and crit is bad for FoL to regen mana. mp5 is always better since wow came out for FoL.

My FoL crits may not be quite as strong as non-critting HL's, but that is offset by the SS bonuses (HoT bonus, +50% crit). WIth these factors, I think that HPS of HL non-crits versus FoL crits (which are often) aren't as far off as you think. And I don't need Divine Plea.

FoL is for noobs because you don't have to watch your mana.

one of the most important skill for healers is to manage mana.

Please, if Blizz enables a healing build that is relaxed on mana management so that a healer can focus elsewhere, who are you to say that it's invalid?

Anyways, I never claimed that an FoL build is superior to HL, I'm just saying that you can do the job with both. I will probably stick with FoL, as it plays more like my PvP rotation than an HL build.

[Fojos]

Cause trash is important enough to spec for.

If you don't have another offspec (ret or prot) why not have a 2nd healing spec? Good DPS did that (especially for rogues, where good rogues had ass for most bosses and combat for trash). Being more effective at trash = less time taken to get to bosses = more time on bosses.

[Tribunal]

Just one quick thing: I realize it's not the point of the thread, but...

I just recently went FoL and I'm liking it so far. It can be nice and powerful if you do it right. Plenty of top guild pallies are FoL, and were for Algalon, pre-nerf Mimi hardmode, etc. It's a legitimate spec, but again you have to do it right, and it also depends on raid makeup and style somewhat.

That being said, I am not opposed to going back to HL (14 more primary colored gems yay! Good thing badges/honor/gold are relatively easy to come by :D) if hardmodes demand it/if our recruit HL Holy Pally leaves/doesn't make it (personally don't see that happening, they're pretty worthwhile))/if I get sick of this spec too/want another change of pace :D. I do think you absolutely need 1 HL Pally in the raid (if you're going to have a Holy Pally at all) and for a long time I was that Pally, all by my lonesome.

And yes, I've cleared hardmodes.... everything but 0 light Yogg since Uld came out, in a timely manner (before the next tier in most all cases). My position in the meters (yes, lolmeters) didn't change, and we didn't stop killing stuff just because I switched my spamming over a button. Tanks didn't fall over dead.

I -do- see how HL outperforms technically, but in my experience a player with half a brain can make either style/spec perform, and perform well.


All that being said, the list did make me lol :D

[Nullified]

My FoL crits may not be quite as strong as non-critting HL's, but that is offset by the SS bonuses (HoT bonus, +50% crit). WIth these factors, I think that HPS of HL non-crits versus FoL crits (which are often) aren't as far off as you think. And I don't need Divine Plea.

The SS bonus of the HoT is overwritten each time you FoL. And since you're spamming FoL, it doesn't get a chance to tick that often.
Also if this is you, you're gemming wrong for either HL or FoL. You NEVER want to mix SP and int stacking. HL stacks Int, FoL stacks SP. And judging by your achievements your FoL build works in the heroic 5 mans you run and you're most likely getting carried in your 10 man ICC.

[Nullified]

If you don't have another offspec (ret or prot) why not have a 2nd healing spec? Good DPS did that (especially for rogues, where good rogues had ass for most bosses and combat for trash). Being more effective at trash = less time taken to get to bosses = more time on bosses.

Yes many non hybrids do have two different dps specs.

[Alenko]

TEN THINGS WRONG WITH YOUR HOLY PALLY'S ARMORY

1) You're specc'ed into Ret instead of Prot. The main benefit of the Ret tree for a Holy Pally is the massive amount of Crit it gives. However, Crit is one of our worst stats (tied with SP, IMO). On the other hand, even post "nerf", Divine Sac/Guardian is still very strong. And, in some ways, better than it was before. The actual amount absorbed has been reduced (and you can't use the godly Bubble Sac for infinite absorbs), however a clause was added that turns off the damage redirection ability when the Paladin reaches 20% health (the raidwide mini shield wall persists). This means that the ability can be used on its own CD rather than waiting for five minutes on Bubble. Just make sure it's not up during periods of significant simultaneous AoE raid damage. If all the damage is transfered over at the exact same time, you will die.

only thing that applies to me but thats because Im to lazy to respec

[Liero]

After reading this post, - much of which i allready knew, some things new and ideas ill try out - i wonder if HoL or HL is the better specc in raids (in regard of the raids we're not overgeared for, icc and togc).
could you post a link of each specc as well the pros and cons for both?

[roboscorcher]

The SS bonus of the HoT is overwritten each time you FoL. And since you're spamming FoL, it doesn't get a chance to tick that often.
Also if this is you, you're gemming wrong for either HL or FoL. You NEVER want to mix SP and int stacking. HL stacks Int, FoL stacks SP. And judging by your achievements your FoL build works in the heroic 5 mans you run and you're most likely getting carried in your 10 man ICC.

About "stacking int," 2 of my 5 int gems are there to fill a SP socket bonus, so the SP loss is mitigated. However, I'll admit that I could (and probably will) replace the int gems in the blacksmithing sockets.

About me getting "carried." I am a new raider, I've only been heavy raiding since December. If I had been around earlier, I'm sure I'd have the Naxx and Uld acheives, as well as some decent weps. In our ICC10 runs, I am usually the top healer, depending on my duties. I often share roles with the other healers, and our healing works well with each other so far. None of our healers would say that one is 'carrying' the others.

Also, the reason for my lack of 25man ICC acheives is simply that my guild hasn't done it yet. Once we have enough geared guildies ready, we'll be there. And I can't wait, I really need that healing shield from 25 marrowgar...just wanted to clarify about my raiding acheivements.

[Firecrest]

It's ironic that you would say this, because you want me to fill out Holy Power.

Over something that your other Holy pally, Tree or Prot Pally provides anyhow? Why yes, yes I do.

Also, right now given my current crit % and my regular healing style, 1% crit gives me ~16mp5. Roughly this means 3 crit rating = 1 mp5. The gear itemization for crit rating to mp5 is 2:1. The difference in regen is (in my opinion) all but negligible due to the fact that the vast majority of my mana is coming from Divine Plea and replenishment. Also, as I gain higher amounts of crit and use more HLs per minute, the mana returns from crit is going to increase. I can feasibly see myself looking through my combat log one day and realizing that in regards to mana regen, crit has finally caught up to mp5.

You need to recheck your math then. Even at 1 second HLs, chain cast with no movement, Crit still loses to MP5.