Black Bruise vs Remorseless

[Izzirez]

Okay, I know what your thinking, that this topic has been done over and over about BB. Well, my question is a little different. I know how they perform with the sim and have taken that into account, but just want another viewpoint on how good BB is.

I just picked up my 2nd Remorseless tonight (258 tribute chest mace), and then we went to ICC and knocked out the plaguewing, and lo and behold, festergut dropped black bruise. I didn't want to waste a possible upgrade, so I took the dkp hit for it. From simming, I get the following numbers for my gear:

Remorse/Remorse - 9616
Remorse/Kels - 9644
BB/Remorse - 9641
BB/Kels - 9624

The 2 bolded ones are what I'm curious about. I know that in a perfect tank and spank fight, aka Saurfang/Festergut/Blood queen to an extent, that BB will indeed prove better. What im curious about is people's opinions on how BB/Remorse vs 2x Remorse will perform on fights with adds, i.e. Putricide, Valithria, etc. My thoughts are that BB/Remorse are good on the sim, but anytime i have to do some add switching or aoe, then BB will lose out to double remorseless. I want to know what YOUR opinion is on this, and by YOU I mean endgame enh shaman. If your guild can't do hardmodes, then I'm sorry, but I'm prolly not going to be taking your opinion into too much consideration.

Eventually I'll be getting my Kel's seducer and be using Remorse/Kels until I get hardmode weapons, but this is what I have for now and I'm not sure if its worth my time to gem and enchant my 2nd Remorseless.

So after all this rambling, lets here what you have to say.

[Brisgnr]

http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat...4746#damageout
http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat...1496139#buffer
If you want to see numbers on ideal fights for the BB proc

[sicness]

I think the obvious issue with black bruise will be as you said, when you encounter multiple targets that could/will decrease the effectiveness of the BB buff (forgot the name of it necro /we) in that you won't get full usage out of it at times. However the obvious advantage to BB is how it scales with gear so eventually as our gear becomes better BB should be better for you regardless of decreased up-time/usage due to it's flat % increase in damage done.

The encounters that will not favor BB will be add/multiple target encounters, however you also have to consider it's ICD and add spawn timer/target changing timers (i.e. blood princes and putricide). The only glaring encounter I could see it not being as beneficial, to the point where if you do have a slightly better weapon and you wouldn't use BB, would be Putricide and the upcoming Dreamwhisper.

[Omanley]

i think you´ll want to have keleseth´s in oh at all costs, because hit becomes more attractive than crit in icc gear ( because of melee crit cap).

in terms of the mh slot, i dunno. sadly my guild was never able to progress any further than 2/5, and apparantly has no interest in doing totcg25 man since icc is out.

if you really want to do the absolutely highest dmg possible, than switch remorseless/bb in mh depending on encounter. the dmg gain/loss is marginal, so you might as well make your choice of weapon at random :P.

keep in mind that bb proc scales with weapon dmg, which is affected by the rest of our gear as well, so bb might become better than remorseless as you keep upgrading gear.

as you´re no orc, you wont have to worry about axe/fist racial at least.

have you simmed stormpike cleaver? same ilvl as remorseless, but may come out similar/better, as hit becomes useful raising melee crit cap.

[SolSphere]

My question is... Is this weapon actually being simmed correctly. In Rawr this weapon always shows to be under the other 251 weapons. Only when I model full 264 ICC gear does it show as being one of the better weapons from the 251 family. Based on ilvl (I know ilvl isn't the end all be all to gearing, just making an observation) it should not be beating remorseless, which in rawr it doesn't, but as you posted in the sims it does. If I change the proc rate to 5% (I beleive is what I changed it to) then it shows more along the lines of what the sim is telling me.

I know rawr is having whatever issues right now, but I thought that was centralized around trinkets, and that Black Bruise was okay from the last notes I read on rawr's releases. Does anyone have any insight into what's going on between the two programs? Actually readable knowledge, not I pulled this from the pits of my rear end information...

[Jamdawg]

Make sure you have the most current version of enhsim, because originally the BB proc was set to 2.7% and it was buffed and is now 3.3% in the sim.

[kudzupo]

First of all /jealous!

Can't get either BB/KS to drop and my guild hasn't been back to TOGC since we wiped on anub HM 75+ times :/.

The weapon is currently being modelled correctly in EnhSim. We did extensive testing on it, and that coupled with rogue testing on it is the correct model. I do not know about Rawr.

The current model is that which I have seen with low ArP and i264 gear: i277 BB> i264 10 man hardmode>/= i258 = i264 BB

Once we get more ArP and have 4pc t10 (yes its unbelievable, but with 4pc t10 and BB, ArP's value is increased), BB should come out ahead on most fights.

BB should be just as effective on multiple add fights. The thing that will effect it the most is movement and time on bosses.

[SolSphere]

Make sure you have the most current version of enhsim, because originally the BB proc was set to 2.7% and it was buffed and is now 3.3% in the sim.

Did you expect me to go, OH THAT's my problem??!?!?

...

The weapon is currently being modelled correctly in EnhSim. We did extensive testing on it, and that coupled with rogue testing on it is the correct model. I do not know about Rawr.

Well I don't know all the ends and outs of Rawr, but the way I see it setup right now is as physical dmage at a 1% proc chance. That caused it to be stupid low in the list. But I went in and edited the weapon to proc at a 3.3% chance. With that setting and my current gear it sits right under Frost Giant's Cleaver (10 man normal weapon - I think - ilvl 251). When I change my gear in rawr to BiS gear from the enhance thread on EJ it sits at top normal weapon (from it's ilvl family) to use. BB heroic does not with a 3.3% proc chance though (just a side note).

Again when I change the proc to 5% (in my normal gear) then it is showing similar results to enhsim. i.e. 5% in rawr is showing the same as 3.3% in enhsim (or close to it). But I guess I'll have to get in with some clean WoL logs to figure it out.

[kudzupo]

Likely the reason for the discrepancy I can see it that BB has a 3% chance to proc off of either hand. I.e. it also has a 3% chance to proc off your offhand. Rawr and your own calculations are only considering main hand procs.

So, when you list it as 5% you are nearing where it should be, and why you are getting similar results to EnhSim.

Its actually proc rate should be closer to 6% because of this. It was confirmed here: http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t83763-p...pdated_1_25_a/

[SolSphere]

So it's just missing the OH capable procs in rawr then. Time to go make a ticket I guess. See what they say about it. Of course I don't have a rawr sheet with me here at work, so can't do that even right now. Wonder how wrong it would be to just change the proc in rawr to 6.6%... I'm not the greatest in figuring out formuals. I'm more of a plug the numbers in kind of person, after the formula has already been nmade xD.

[SolSphere]

bleh double post, but anywho

I went back into Rawr to see what I could do about the 3.3% thing and not being triggered by the offhand. Guess what. Mainhand Offhand are actual setting in RAWR leading me to believe that RAWR actually is modeling it as both hands being able to trigger it. Which of course puts me back into the dark as to why it's so low on RAWRS listings. I know these procs are funny little things, but I would love to find a way to get rawr to show it correctly. I use it for gems and whatnot and it bothers me that I can't optimize correctly with rawr because of this =(

[Caithy]

Hey slightly offtopic bit i'm currently also using the bb/258 tribute Mace and waiting for THE seducer to drop, but why is bb bb/seducer lower then 258mace/seducer? Currently not home so dient check your armo, but wouldnt the bb damage go up aswell with a better oh?

[Deleted]

It's because its a bugger to model and I gave up being interested in changing it when I stopped raiding.

[Izzirez]

It's because its a bugger to model and I gave up being interested in changing it when I stopped raiding.

Shouldn't that be Rawr exclusive? That's if your talking about the BB/seducer being lower then 258/seducer. I just use Rawr to get my gear to export to EnhSim.

[Tylla]

Havoc's Call, nuff said. Edit : and I've noticed that 10 man LK is dropping a mainhand fist with stats too. Blizzard really doesn't want us to use BB eh?

Sigh. And I was beginning to make my peace with the idea of having a shitty mainhand in the name of having a matched pair.

[Izzirez]

Havoc's Call, nuff said. Edit : and I've noticed that 10 man LK is dropping a mainhand fist with stats too. Blizzard really doesn't want us to use BB eh?

Sigh. And I was beginning to make my peace with the idea of having a shitty mainhand in the name of having a matched pair.

BiS is still heroic BB + Heroic Havoc's call. The proc from BB just scales so well with that level of gear.

[Tylla]

Ah, I see some people have been hard at work simming already, over in the US while I've been sleeping.

[SolSphere]

Shouldn't that be Rawr exclusive? That's if your talking about the BB/seducer being lower then 258/seducer. I just use Rawr to get my gear to export to EnhSim.

yes he was answering my question as to why I was getting some weird results. I've gone ahead and modified BB to hae a 6% chance to proc instead of the 3.3. That puts it as BiS for me. I have not looked at the new weapons hough, so it is possible to not be BiS anymore, just as of the posting on previous page.