Ensidia suspended for 72 Hours

[Bluey111]

They deserve a suspension, they found a bug and didn't report it straight away, instead they exploited it and thats a bannable offense

[Deleted]

Well, Exodus was actively and on porpuse exploiting a bug - Ensidia can not be considered doing this.

But that's the thing, several Ensidia members already said that something was wrong it the fight and they ignored it, going for the simplified kill. That is by definition an exploit.

This is not a question that Blizzard failed or not, it's a question that Ensidia have no moral ground to complain about a 72 hours ban when they were the first to denounce Exodus exploit. After that event, the responsability of morality was theirs. They failed.

Believe me, it would had been WAY worse if Blizz didn't acted, showing a double-standard police.

[eurya]

Alright time to clear this mess up.

The banning process, how it doesn't go:

GMs see kill. GMs check logs. GMs see bombs lowered intended difficulty of encounter. GMs ban everyone.

The banning process, how it does go:

GMs see kill. GMs check logs. GMs see bombs lowered intended difficulty of encounter. Information is passed up, chat logs are read and re-read. It is found that attempts prior to the killing pull, guild was aware of effect bombs had on difficulty of encounter, however decided against informing GMs they knew were present, and use said mechanic to increase chances of killing boss.

GMs rightfully ban suckhole cheaters.

Saying "IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN TESTED" is proof of nothing other than you have never, ever had responsibility over anything more than how to cook your steak, and you should choke.

[Aliissa]

Any of you is sure that they actually did not open a ticket to try to report this? I know that on my server, it took 3 days for the #1 guild to actually have an answer about all their attempts wasted on the Blood-Queen because she was bugged and randomly despawned. The raid has resetted by then.

If they didn't open a ticket, too bad for them, sure, but with all the GM's watching their kill, why did nothing happened there? Maybe they didn't open a ticket because they knew it would take a long time before it gets a reply. Who can sure tell that they knew they were the one bugging the encounter, yes they knew something was wrong, yes they did it in 10-man, but they were fighting to have the first kill. If any other guild would have been there, at the same point that they were, and would see a bug happening but not knowing what it is (according to them claiming not knowing what was causing it), they still would try to kill the boss.

I am not on anybody's side here, I am just trying to understand, we can not be sure of anything. I would love to actually see public WoL reports to see if that rogue actually damaged something else than the Valkyrs and the boss that he was supposed to kill. If he did it on purpose, then good job to Blizzard, but once again comes the question, what were the GM's watching the fight doing at that exact moment?

I think that Blizzard is partially to blame in here, because it is obviously known by everyone that the fight was being watched. I do not know anyone in Ensidia, I play on U.S. servers, but I think that if Ensidia really believe they have nothing to be blamed about, they should give us a direct link to the World of Logs and also show us the video, if they didn't Fraps it, it is the proof they knew they were doing something wrong.

I would love to believe they didn't do anything wrong here, but all they did was bringing us the proof that the rogue as using the Saronite Bombs in his rotation, they didn't actually prove us that everything they said was true. So, like we love to say, SS or it didn't happen, in this case would be SS or it did happen.

[noman]

you sanction someone if they did or did not do something..

what do we pay blizzard for?

if using glitches means cheating then why do they create an opportunity to cheat?

if they are not aware of the glitches with all the things they are saying or doing to prevent it.. who's fault is it?

if you created an expansion and this is your finale and its still faulty what kind of company are you?

if you have 11 million customers who pays monthly, who bought wotlk.. how hard can it be to hire people to perfect your product?

if your a bully and does not want anyone to pull a fast one on you this is what you do?

if your a business threatened by the the games around, is this how you want to be talked about?

it was the first time everyone tried it.. they found a way of making it easy with the options you have given them.. you cant change the rules in the middle of the game..

removing the achievement would have been fair enough for its the idea of achieving something but sanctioning them for outsmarting you? come on? you should expect your "customers" to try everything in the book to play wow and that was one of your talks.. to make the game "more engaging"

they actually did and found out that you provided us again with a sub standard product that would take a number of blue post patches realm down to take care of - a bit exaggerated but i think you get what i mean

play wow for everything is work in progress. you'll be with us testing it out for sometime for when you bought the expansion.. we don't have the complete game available to play yet thats why we need you to test it and if it does not go as planned when we released it.. you will be with us while you pay us and you gently wait for your queue and get inconvenienced due to our unscheduled realm resets.. as always we apologize.. we down the realms.. we don't give you refunds for what you pay us.. and now we also sanction you.. - more exaggeration i believe

as i said before.. you should be thankful that you really have good material here and no company yet comes near to what you have achieved.. and i think that is the reason why you got too much air in your heads blizzard!!

i really hope that star wars strategy is cut throat to make sure it hits blizzard bad and they need to treat us as how "customers" should be treated..

so now should we sanction blizzard )

[Deleted]

Any of you is sure that they actually did not open a ticket to try to report this? I know that on my server, it took 3 days for the #1 guild to actually have an answer about all their attempts wasted on the Blood-Queen because she was bugged and randomly despawned. The raid has resetted by then.

If they didn't open a ticket, too bad for them, sure, but with all the GM's watching their kill, why did nothing happened there? Maybe they didn't open a ticket because they knew it would take a long time before it gets a reply. Who can sure tell that they knew they were the one bugging the encounter, yes they knew something was wrong, yes they did it in 10-man, but they were fighting to have the first kill. If any other guild would have been there, at the same point that they were, and would see a bug happening but not knowing what it is (according to them claiming not knowing what was causing it), they still would try to kill the boss.

Blizz hotfixed the fight a hour after the kill. That means that the Devs were watching the fight, as they usually do on this world first tries.

they found a way of making it easy with the options you have given them.. you cant change the rules in the middle of the game..

You got this part right. The rules of the game are you don't exploit to get easy kills. Those rules were enforced when Blizz permabanned Exodus after being denounced by... Ensidia.

[Hoodi]

well i may as well say it again for giggles.

14 million and 2 times now its been said ...


Something happened in that raid be it in chat logs or actions a player took that we do not and never will know what happened.

Whatever it was that they did or said blizzard deemed it beyond the normal paramaters of an accidental abuse of a bug.

A video would of cleared this.

[Thora]

Blizz hotfixed the fight a hour after the kill. That means that the Devs were watching the fight, as they usually do on this world first tries.

You got this part right. The rules of the game are you don't exploit to get easy kills. Those rules were enforced when Blizz permabanned Exodus after being denounced by... Ensidia.

Yeah, wouldn't we all always love to stop fighting an encounter whenever an bug aqpears and loosing an limited attempt...good that there are Ensidia and Co. fixing broken encounters...should be said, exploting here or not.

[Deleted]

Saying "IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN TESTED" is proof of nothing other than you have never, ever had responsibility over anything more than how to cook your steak, and you should choke.

It should have been tested. I say this as a professional game tester.
You are clueless. Shut up.

[bondgirl]

thats the risk while aiming for WF's.

you get baned cause encounter can be bugged

[mrwingtipshoes]

Know whats amazing? the fact that there are 84 pages and the majority of the posts on this thread are people who registered to go "QQ take it back my favz got banned!"

And to people saying "its part of a rogues standard rotation to use blah blah" shut up!

Its been said by people who had seen the encounter pre-hotfix that to make the terrain reform you have to throw the bombs WHERE THE FLOOR IS MISSING Period. "but but its part of the" You're wrong! its nothing to do with rotation. There was one of 2 things going on.

A) They were tanking him on the edge so that the bombs were hitting the ground where it was falling off

OR

B) They were throwing bombs at the edge of the stage to put the world back together.

IF it was A then why would they if they didnt know there was a usable bug? The spawns carry people off and drop them. If you dont burn them, they die. If you are close to the edge less time to get to the edge higher required DPS, probably more dead players. So to do it right you need to stand in the middle to get more time to kill them.

B is a blatant exploit as well.



In short there is no explanation of the actions aside from blatant exploitation of an unintended bug.

"How did they know it was unintended"
First off they did it on 10 man. They cleared it on 10 man. They knew how the fight worked.

"How were they supposed to know its the saronite bombs causing it"
First off. siege damage comes up a different colour (i cant say what it is, I am in fact colourblinde, but i can see that it is a different colour) Second off, see the A/B situation above, there is no way they did NOT know with the way they used it.

"Why should I/They use an ingame mechanic to our advantage"
Did you know "receiving stolen property" is against the law? Did you also you know that ignorance does not excuse you of the law? So if you benefit in anyway from stolen goods (buy and sell them, use a stolen car ect) and didn't know it you could go to jail. This is like you buying a stolen car and going "i dont care, its mine now."

"Why didn't they test better"
Bugs slip through, clearly none of you have done any sort of programming, coding is.... unpredictable. They could have tested it and then changed the color of the lich kings sword hilt and done something the code "doesnt like" and make it so that this happen. Sometimes you change totally unrelated things in coding and it causes issues.

"ZOMG BLIZZ IZ WRONG!"
Doesn't matter what you or I think, don't understand why? Read the Blizzard Vs. Wowglider court case. See what the courts explanation was of the ownership of World of Warcraft licenses, software, hardware and usage. More or less its their game they can do what every they want in the game and there is no recourse you or I can take.

"I dont think what blizz did is right"
Did the same thing to Exodus. Was it right then? If you say this isnt right then that wasnt right either. If you were ok with Exodus's ban then you should be ok with this one. They are parallel circumstances.



Seriously people, engage brain. Don't shove you're head up your ass or your foot in your mouth and especially don't do both at once, it might hurt.

[Vhnd]

It should have been tested. I say this as a professional game tester.
You are clueless. Shut up.

And I say this as someone that has been a developer, QA, and QA manager for a large software company (which dwarfs your "experience" making $12/hour testing Mah Jong for the iPhone) - bugs get out. Look how many bugs are in Windows 7, and then look at the size of Microsoft's QA team (hint: its huge) and the talent of members of their QA team (hint: they have some smart people).

Long story short:

• Ensidia members pay their $15/month, represent 1/100,000th of the WoW population, and are not above the rules
• A small bug like this could have slipped past any QA team - but as a whole, Blizzard is well known for having one of the most polished games ever
• Ensidia members were not banned for finding a bug or because they have had shady kills in the past
• The achievement and rewards should have been removed regardless of any wrongdoing
• All evidence points to Blizzard banning them for knowingly abusing the bug and trying to cover it up

[koimagheul]

^ most of this is qft material

• A small bug like this could have slipped past any QA team

if it had been a random behavior causing this bug, yes it could have slipped past any QA team.
engi rogues throwing sarobombs is BY NO MEAN a random behavior.

[Sonic018]

First, the Blizzzard versus Glider Story should remain out of here. You can check legal forums of you want, but you will find out, that blizzard actually uses quite the same mechanics to win "fights" as Ensidia may have done here.

The important thing is, that this case demonstrates reasonable doubt, about willingly exploiding an ingame bug. In fact, if we get back to the court rules, in case of reasobalbe doubt, the defence wins until proven guilty. Here in this Forum, there is not the slightest evidence proving their guild in any possible way.

mrwingtipshoes actually leaves out several additional perfectly credible scenarios, which would not confirm abuse. As long as there is no video released nor complete combat logs, we cannot judge here on any grounds.

Personally, I think that in this case of Worldfirstkills, Blizzard should just simply remove all the effects of the fight and fix the encounter. In fact, the guild and the responsibility lies clearly on their side. (I even doubt, that an ingame ban without the possibility of confronting it is eveen legal, but we'll leave thos discussion for now^^)

Conclusion remains the same, unguilty until proven otherwise, and I seriously doubt that we will ever be able to do this in this forum...

[koimagheul]

In fact, if we get back to the court rules, in case of reasobalbe doubt, the defence wins until proven guilty. Here in this Forum, there is not the slightest evidence proving their guild in any possible way.

http://www.ensidia.com/Ekyu/blog/4079/
guilty.

[Aliissa]

"How were they supposed to know its the saronite bombs causing it"
First off. siege damage comes up a different colour (i cant say what it is, I am in fact colourblinde, but i can see that it is a different colour)

Only the rogue would see it, and I think that such an experienced player would actually see he does siege damage somewhere. If he did, like previously said, he deserved his ban. If it didn't show as siege damage, they shouldn't have been banned.

They knew it was coming from Saronite Bombs because they asked questions about it I suppose. Or they openly lied to the whole world and risked their reputation for a 25-man NORMAL first kill?

[Ndrangheta]

The Point of this discussion SHOULD be why ban people in cases like this.

The real thing is: You pay a montly fee for a game, you discover a bug..and you get banned for 3 days??? Basically they are doing what testers should have done before.

Arthas died first by the Ensidia hands, same as Yogg+0 by Exodus.. he died, we dont have fault that the game have bugs..we are paying for a buggy game..we pay to play and we get banned for killing a buggy boss?

I bet a few other guilds used this bug and still have the credit/achivement.

SO if a Blizzard employer discovers a bug in the game they get fired or loose their salary??

Losing the achivement it's the only penalty that makes sense....simply because we pay to play and we don't have the fault that the bugs exists in any game

[Sheperd]

ITT Ensidia and ensidia fanboys QQing

[Katakuro]

I date a person who uses programming and coding in his work designing websites, and I'm going to quote some of the conversation right now:

me: sometimes a little smudge in the code can cause weird bugs, correct?
him: it can actually crash it entirely depending on where and what it is
him: bugs are hard to catch, especially in larger projects

Besides that point, any amount of testing can fix a bug, and cause 10 more, so, they could've fixed numerous bugs before releasing the Lich King fight, and that fix could've just as easily caused numerous more.

Had they continued to do the fight regularly, you know, killing the Val'kyr's Blizz MIGHT have overlooked it, yet they decided that since the ground was there where they would've been dropped off, that they could ignore that part. Sure, they could've killed him without the use of the bug, which in all honesty, is exactly what they should've done, but they decided to take a short cut, even on a world first, you shouldn't take the low road cause it's faster, you should take the same road everyone else has to.

Exodus, got banned for using a bug, what makes you think Ensidia is any higher? A bug used to make a fight easier, it still a bug, even if you don't know what caused it, they made the decision to leave the Val'Kyr's alone instead of do the fight as intended.

[Naivedo]

so someone please tell me why this guild should be punished for a known fuck up by blizzard? Time for a new mmo to rise up, problem is nobody seems to know how to do it right.

Yes, I do agree, a new MMO is in order. I am looking forward to All Points Bulletin http://www.apb.com. The people coming up with new MMOs have it wrong, you don't copy WoW... you crush it with a new idea and new style. If you wanted to play something like WoW, we would play WoW.