Chain lightning vs. lightning bolt-ELE

[vock]

I have been re reading over the forums and I have been noticing a lot of other people saying that in our ele rotation chain lightning then lightning bolt should be cast depending on cool down, However, I have always thought lightning bolt was the highest hitter and chain lightning was for multi targets only. Anyone care to enlighten me?

[Aelith]

chain lightning hits harder (doesnt scale as much tho) so at some point LB might hit harder but CL has faster cast so its better however its a huge mana drainer.

[Ganonn]

I once believed that adding CL to my rotation would improve my deeps, because it crit almost as hard as my LB and was on a short cooldown. A good example was one of my guild's attempts at Festergut. I would swap out my LtnB with CL whenever it was up. When the fight was over, my class leader whipsered me saying that I should negate CL from my rotation unless there are two or more mobs. I thought it was ridiculous, but I tested it nevertheless.

I tried out a 6 minute session on a training dummy with CL constantly in my rotation, and pulled some average deeps. The next time session I tried, I vetoed it from the rotation. I pulled close to 500-600 more DPS.

Hope that helps.

[jontaxe]

I have been re reading over the forums and I have been noticing a lot of other people saying that in our ele rotation chain lightning then lightning bolt should be cast depending on cool down, However, I have always thought lightning bolt was the highest hitter and chain lightning was for multi targets only. Anyone care to enlighten me?

Short answer: It's complicated.

LB hits harder, but CL has a faster cast time, so on the surface it has higher DPS.
However, LB has a higher (single target) chance to proc lightning overload. IIRC (and I may not) CL has a lower per target chance to proc LO, getting up to 33% when it hits all 3 targets. Someone did the math for at what spell power LB finally overtakes CL in DPS once you factor LO chance in. (There is also a SP level where LB overtakes CL in DPS, but that is an unobtainable number IIRC. Something near 5k.) I'll dig around and try to find it if I can.

Also, in theory, if using CL forces you to also use thunderstorm where you otherwise would not (ie, you have enough mana to LB spam but not enough to use CL) it is also a net DPS loss. However, that assumes a no movement fight. In reality, you can just pop TS on the move when you wouldn't be casting anyway.

Also, some people use it to more closely "fill" the time between lava bursts. That use depends on your haste level (and procs, and cooldowns, and movement and and and and) and is more of a decision to make on the fly rather than a set rotation.

On multiple targets it is, of course, the way to go.

Did that help? Didn't think so. >

In short: If you have the mana, and it tightens up your rotation, and you aren't above this magical SP number that I am going to go try and find now, use it. Else don't. In reality, the DPS change either way (single target, of course. You better be firing off every CL you can on Saurfang's blood beasts) is so small that you don't need to lose any sleep over it.

[Zamir]

In short: If you have the mana, and it tightens up your rotation, and you aren't above this magical SP number that I am going to go try and find now, use it. Else don't. In reality, the DPS change either way (single target, of course. You better be firing off every CL you can on Saurfang's blood beasts) is so small that you don't need to lose any sleep over it.

That's a brilliant overview! I'd also add, "if you are comfortable with it". Ultimately you'll do more DPS using what you're more comfortable with no matter what the theory says.

The spellpower figure at which LB overtakes CL in DPS depends on haste, and vice versa for the haste figure. Last time I did maths it was in the region of 10k spellpower at 40% haste, but don't hold me to that. Also at high haste levels, when CL is skirting the fixed 1-second GCD (1269+), using it is very unlikely to be a DPS increase due to the way cast queueing mechanics interact with that fixed GCD.

[thehoodie]

Unless Ele has some magical talent that changes things, the SP where LB overtakes CL is approx. 1900.

[Zamir]

Unless Ele has some magical talent that changes things, the SP where LB overtakes CL is approx. 1900.

Talking about DPS, not damage per hit. CL does more DPS on a single target despite hitting softer than LB because it takes less time to cast. The figure you quote is accurate for enhancement shamans, who only cast Lightning spells under the Maelstrom Weapon effect, and thus get no benefit from the lower cast time of CL and can safely ignore it in even raidbuffed starter level 80 gear except on multiple targets.

But for elemental every moment spent casting (or not casting) is valuable, hence why CL continues to be a consideration for DPS even at very high gear levels.

[Arcsecant]

The times when chain lightning becomes most helpful is when you can stop running for a second to cast it. You might not have enough time to cast a full lightning bolt so casting a chain lightning will help sustain your DPS while you move. This is only when lvb is on cooldown. Both lvb and cl have an identical cast time.

[Bergg]

There's great information in this topic.

In ICC gear, I personally suggest you abandon CL versus single target mobs (unless you use CL to be able to use Lava Burst as soon as it's up, which is way easier said than done). Your haste will be very high, CL will often hit the global cooldown because of Elemental Mastery and Heroism, and it's just messy; you have more dangerous things to pay attention to. The RNG of Lightning Overload also makes it difficult to test or simulate LB versus CL.

The above poster brings up an excellent point. When we're dragging Putricide across the room, I don't run all the way there! Every time Lava Burst or Chain Lightning comes off of cooldown, I stop and cast those. Same thing with Blood Queen; when I get the purple fire, I run, Lava Burst, run, and Chain Lightning. These spells are excellent if you're on the move and your Shocks are on cooldown.

Another reason I advocate CL over LB in ICC gear is because, yes, CL is a drain on mana. On some fights, you can (and should) go out of mana if you minimize your movement. By using CL when it's not really worth it, you may end up forcing yourself to use Water Shield or Thunderstorm at some point. If you can LB instead, you'll never need to use those WS and TS.

Latency is also another issue. I'm not sure on the specifics of this--maybe Zamir knows; I think I've seen him talk about latency before--but the shorter your casts, the more your latency will affect those casts. Therefore, the higher your latency is, the less benefit you'll get from extremely short spells (Chain Lightning); I believe that's how it goes. I'm in Hawaii, so.. yeah. Lightning Bolt won't be as affected by your latency.

[Guyfawkes]

This is one of the most interesting threads on the subject I've read since I check the MMO forums. I find myself doing target dummy tests quite often to see if I can get a definitive result on whether I should use or not use CL on my single target rotation (cast time getting very very close to 1.0 sec now). Taking the latency issue into consideration, I think I'll try to drop it today when I'm raiding and see what happens with my dps.

Thank you everyone. And sorry if I made some horrible mistakes with my english writing as it is not my native tongue.

[whowherewhat?]

I've actually asked the very same question on these forums a while back and got somewhat different answers. Here are the facts I got last time I did asked this question:
1. LB does more damage as a spell
2. CL has a higher DPCT (to a certain point)
3. This point is whenever your GCD cap your CL

---> Now I only use CL when it isn't GCD capped by any of my procs. I'm an engineer, so I only use CL when I don't have my glove enchant (340 haste), EM (15%) or Heroism going. At my level of haste, any of those procs drop it below a 1 second cast time, but this may not be the same for you! Give it a try with your CDs: use them and mouse-over CL and check the cast time. Use them separate, use them in conjunction, figure out what works.

Hope this helps <3

[Zamir]

I've actually asked the very same question on these forums a while back and got somewhat different answers. Here are the facts I got last time I did asked this question:
1. LB does more damage as a spell
2. CL has a higher DPCT (to a certain point)
3. This point is whenever your GCD cap your CL

1 and 2 are correct, but 3 isn't - or, well, it's a lot less clear-cut. The GCD cap is a "rule-of-thumb" cutoff, but in actual fact CL remains higher DPCT than LB even a long way past the 50% haste point. The situation is complicated by two things: first, the mechanics of spell-queueing when below that 1 second GCD cap, and second, the effect of CL on the "spacing" time between LvB casts (as even a capped CL that allows tighter LvB timing can be a DPS increase).

ZAP! usually reports that CL usage during haste effects is a Bad Idea™, so not using CL during EM/BL/Hyper/Berserk etc seems like a no-brainer even for fairly low haste levels (say, anything above 700 paperdoll). But outwith those effects, even past the 50% haste cut-off, CL can still be a DPS increase.

Your advice, however, I completely agree with Try it and see how it feels to you personally and figure out what you're comfortable with, as ultimately it's what you can pull off most smoothly that will benefit you most. Even with perfect CL use in an optimum situation it's worth no more than 100 extra DPS, and you can easily lose that much by using it sub-optimally.

[fakestreet]

Not using CL while GCD'd is mostly correct but it should be mentioned that a GCD'd CL is still a DPS increase if it will hit 3 targets (say on Saurfang). So keep that in mind when you're spamming LB while hasted.

[whowherewhat?]

Yea number three was the iffy one for me too. I agree with the idea that CL outweighs LB in any 3+ target situation regardless of haste effects too <3

[Metania]

On a single target "just stand and nuke" fight I only use CL if i have a shorter gap between the LvB cd is done then the casting time of LB, using it as a filler. Sometime I use CL in my rotation just because I am bored and still can spare the mana to use it^^ problem is when you use CL a lot you need to use Thunderstorm more often and that is waste of a GCD that I can do dmg with instead

On a moving fight I use it more, cus of the short cast time, Like on Putricide, or when move away from Ooze explotion on Rotface
And on Putricide I allways make sure that I have CL up when the Ooze is close to the boss so I can get a CL jump. And mana is not a problem when you need to move a lot anyway

[Finnober]

cl = 11% overload chance
lb = 33% overload + better scaling


Am i right that using cl on cd should increase your dps by 10-20 ?^^

I don't use it..