Glyphs: Kill Shot vs Chimera Shot

[Demarticus]

most hunters go for Kill Shot, though i've seen some very good dps come out of Chimera Shot, i'm not asking for your personal opinion, does anybody have any numbers to prove if one is better then the other?

[Shirahadori]

Pretty sure using Chimera Shot glyph revolves around your latency. So the dps difference will vary per person. You can use FD to plug in different ms latency numbers to find a discrepency between the glyphs.

[Swiftren]

According too Spreadsheet, i have 11018dps with buffs using kill shot glyph (150MS), I go down too 10917 using chimera shot glyph.

[Daginni]

I went Chimera Shot. By the time your able to use your Kill Shot Glyph, all you really get from it is a extra shot or two before the boss dies, while Chimera gives you many more.

[MMO scrub]

According too Spreadsheet, i have 11018dps with buffs using kill shot glyph (150MS), I go down too 10917 using chimera shot glyph.

I suppose however, that the spreadsheet doesn't take the fact that dps warriors can use Execute at 20% hp stage. Meaning sometimes you might not get to pull off as many killshots as you need to outdps Chimera shot glyph, but what do I know :/

[kunn]

I suppose however, that the spreadsheet doesn't take the fact that dps warriors can use Execute at 20% hp stage. Meaning sometimes you might not get to pull off as many killshots as you need to outdps Chimera shot glyph, but what do I know :/

Afaik, execute is very low on warrior's priority list, aka they nearly dont use it. It should be just before slam in the prio list, since both bt and ww hit harder anyway. So using execute or slam or w/e ..it doesent matter much.

[Naplam]

82 DPS decrease for me when I plug it into the spreadsheet, I'm around 50-90ms on average for raids.

[B@nj0 P3do]

If you want to use Chimera shot glyph, you should also use Aimed shot glyph. because otherwise your attacks will come out of balance.

or something along those lines. I still think Kill shot is better.

[Adyssa]

The reason you don't use Glyph of Chimera Shot is because latency and steady shot cast time can completely remove the benefit of the glyph.

A normal Chimera is 10 second cooldown. Base cast speed for Steady is ~1.7 sec. Typically you do Chim, Aimed, Steady x4. Add the times for Chim's global cooldown and then Aimed and Steady x4 and you get 9.8 seconds. Add any amount of latency, say 50 ms, and suddenly the glyph is doing absolutely nothing. That means anytime you have no haste proc/cooldown, your glyph will be worthless.

Also, using Chimera's glyph makes Glyph of Aimed Shot needed to keep the rotation going correctly otherwise a gap will start growing between your Chimera and Aimed, which makes further room for error by turning your rotation into a priority that is constantly shifting.

Furthermore, someone said that Glyph of Kill Shot will only add a couple more kill shots and that Glyph of Chimera Shot will add "much more." This is a gross misunderstanding. Given a 5 minute fight, or 300 seconds, if you shoot Chimera perfectly on every cooldown, that would be 30 Chimeras without the glyph. With the glyph it would be 33.3~ rounded down to 33, meaning you gain 3 Chimeras, and that is ONLY if you can do it perfectly every 9 seconds without delay which given what I discussed earlier is unlikely for most players. If the burn phase from 20% to 0% is fast, say only the last 45 seconds, you'd go from getting in 3 Kill Shots to doing 5 with the Kill Shot glyph. I am fairly certain that 2 extra Kill Shots outweighs 3 extra Chimera Shots, and it doesn't require an impossibly perfect rotation for the entire fight to get that benefit.

[alexander]

may be offtopic) just a question how good is hawk vs chim/ks if you got rly bad haste?

[Deleted]

If you want to use Chimera shot glyph, you should also use Aimed shot glyph. because otherwise your attacks will come out of balance.

or something along those lines. I still think Kill shot is better.

and loose serpent sting or steady shot glyph... bright idea... you will only loose a couple of hunded dps by doing so.

[dazline]

I just started raiding on my hunter but ive noticed chimera to be crap, only cause of the choppy rotaion it creates. Personally a new fan of killshot

[Ekoor]

I went Chimera Shot. By the time your able to use your Kill Shot Glyph, all you really get from it is a extra shot or two before the boss dies, while Chimera gives you many more.

Exactly my thoughts. Despite the fact there are some fights out there where KS spam is favorable, it's still a highly overrated glyph. More often than not the target dies faster than you'd expect.

[Lysah]

Chimera shots glyph gives you 1 extra CS every 10 shots, or, in the frame of 100 seconds, where you used to get 10 CS's off, now you get off 11. Most fights are 4-6 minutes long, meaning CS glyph gives you maybe an extra 2 or 3 CS's.

[pomop]

Afaik, execute is very low on warrior's priority list, aka they nearly dont use it. It should be just before slam in the prio list, since both bt and ww hit harder anyway. So using execute or slam or w/e ..it doesent matter much.

I disagree. Execute hits harder than BT. So imo the fury rotation is WW > Execute. As arms, execute is top priority.

edit - I am wrong.

As fury its not good to use execute, as at these gear levels (As said by the sticky) BT and WW both hit harder than execute. Although at lower levels execute would be better.

However, It is still top priority as arms.

[Kripparrian]

latency is calculated in the spreadsheet as: shot, wait time = latency, shot
the latency you see in game is not the latency you should be inputting into your spreadsheet

the latency you SHOULD be inputting is : 500/(clicks per second)

example 1: 5 clicks per second -> effective latency = 100
example 2: 20 clicks per second -> effective latency = 25
example 3: 50 clicks per second (yes, this is possible) -> effective latency = 10

onto the argument at hand:

kill shot on all spreadsheets is modeled as 20% of the combat time.
factors that affect kill shot values:
- you cannot kill shot right when the target hits 20%, and your shot will not reach its target if at 1% or less hp. Therefore the true range is 19%-1% (less value)
- the hp range of 19-1% does not last as long as say, a hp range of 100-82%. Why? many classes have low hp mechanics like ours which causes the boss to die much faster in the low hp range (less value)
- adds in an encounter. When an add comes up and is killed, slimes on putricide lets say, the time from 19% - 1% is usually under 3-5 seconds. Any value less than 9 means you only get 1 kill shot off with or without the glyph (less value)
- using readiness to refresh kill shot under 19% will negate the cooldown of your kill shot for 1 shot. Considering you only get 2-5 kill shots during this range, this devalues the glyph by at LEAST 20% (less value)

factors that affect chimera shot values:
- lower latency allows you to tighten your rotation and increasing the value of this glyph. Less latency, more value (value varies)
- player ability to manage a dynamic rotation (value varies)
- ability to refresh serpent sting on 2 mobs with ease (increased value)


this is what chimera shot REALLY does

when you have imp aspect of the hawk proc going, all your shots, including steady are on global cast time 1.5 sec. The uptime on hawk proc is 50-55% on most encounters.

with chimera shot glyph your rotation will look like this:
CS AS SS SS SS SS CS SS AS SS SS SS CS SS SS AS SS SS CS SS SS SS AS SS CS SS SS SS SS AS CS SS SS SS SS SS REPEAT SETS (CS rotation time = 9 seconds)

without chimera shot glyph:
case 1: CS AS SS SS SS SS Nothing1s (CS rotation time = 10 seconds)
or
case 2: CS AS SS SS SS SS SS (CS rotation time = 10.5 seconds)

The second case will yield more dps because 1 steady in 0.5 seconds, along with more chances to proc items/spells far outweighs waiting 1 second. Most hunters just use case 1 with or without aspect of the hawk procs and their dps is low, and they dont know why. Its because youre doing absolutely nothing for 1 second out of every 10 seconds.

Comparing CS glyph rotation vs case 2 rotation under perfect conditions:
CS cooldown 9 sec vs 10.5 sec (about 1 more per minute)
AS cooldown 10.8 sec (average) vs 10.5 sec (about 1 less every 7 minutes)

the average damage of each shot will increase slightly with CS glyph because you are using imp steady shot procs more often. This is because CS and AS are often separated with SS in between them. Also from this, piercing shot damage will increase.

so why does latency devalue chimera shot glyph? well when doing a 9 second CS shot shot shot shot shot rotation, latency will bump it up in time. For instance with 0.1 added on each shot (100 latency) the 9 second rotation becomes a 9.6 second rotation vs a 10 second case 1 and a 11.1 second case 2. High effective latency (ie, poor play) encourages a case 1 non-chimera shot glyph rotation of: CS AS SS SS SS SS Nothing1s



Most of what I have said is to show you that kill shot is over valued in spreadsheet calculations, while chimera shot is under valued. With most people, using spreadsheet values chimera glyph = kill glyph around ~130 latency. With the weight of value lets very generously say 150 latency (its probably way way higher since kill shot glyph is grossly over valued) -- meaning that with an effective latency of value higher than 150 one should not use chimera shot glyph. What does 150 effective latency mean exactly?

500/(clicks per second) = 150, clicks per second = 3.3

which means if you spam your key less often than 3.3 times a second, you should not be using chimera shot glyph.
I also want to add, that with high ARP values, hawk beats out kill shot glyph by a large dps difference. So if you have high ARP and low clicks per second you should use hawk glyph in combination with the typical serpent + steady glyphs

[Fahtrim]

for the builds on my hunters (yes I'm goofy and I run 2 hunters) Glyph of true shot and aimed first in priority over chimera shows as higher dps than kill shot and hawk

Chimera is not even in the race, not even close.

[Drijen]

for the builds on my hunters (yes I'm goofy and I run 2 hunters) Glyph of true shot and aimed first in priority over chimera shows as higher dps than kill shot and hawk

Chimera is not even in the race, not even close.

Is this relative to the value of the Steady Shot and Serpent Sting glyphs? I'd be interested in a real-world dps breakdown between the 5 glyphs with the goal of showing the best possible 3 for you.

[Antisocial]

That's some pretty solid advice you got there Kripparian, I'm considering AotH myself but I've been hesitant since we'll hopefully get blood quuen HC down this week and the get to do sindragosa HC. Both fights should have a longer/more significant execute range, sindragosa because you spend time twiddling your thumbs behind blocks thus increasing the strength of instants, and on blood queen becasue your DPS before bite (and 20%) becomes less significant than DPS after bites. I also suppose it can be better on putricide heroic since more GCD spells means more movement time without penalty.

Your thoughts about it?

Edit: Damn you, I would be 1st on festergut hard if it wasnt for you >:I

[Fahtrim]

Is this relative to the value of the Steady Shot and Serpent Sting glyphs? I'd be interested in a real-world dps breakdown between the 5 glyphs with the goal of showing the best possible 3 for you.

I don't think so, Steady and Serpent are required, the only debate is the third glyph shot, currently for me, Trueshot aura shows the best.