3rd 5-man tier

[Orcbert]

So we have regular dungeons and heroics, but after some gearing or running a few of the 5-mans all the new dungeons are a straight up emblem grind. At the same time, everyone complains that all the older instances are no challenge at their current gear level and easily blasted through at top speeds.

So why don't we take the emblem system and apply it to a third tier of difficulty? No one uses the gear in anything but the ICC or ToC dungeons anyway, so the loot system could go as follows:
Regular-->Regular Drops
Heroic--->Heroic Drops
Epic Dungeon--->Badges

The epic dungeons could increase numbers substantially and actually reintroduce the need of CC and some prioritized killing instead of just burning down everything with AoE. Thoughts on this?

[SC2 Beta Key]

No. Emblems are for gearing up new players. New players will not be able to CC. So these Epic dungeons will only be ran by people gearing their offset. And also, nobody wants to run a 5 man and cc when you could aoe through them like you can now.

[vivee]

Yes ! make some uber leet dungeons!!
Rather have some extra/harder raiding content then this idea.. just my thought

[Ikkatsu]

I've been a long-term supporter of "Raid Difficulty 5 Mans" that require CC etc for Greater Rewards.

Unfortunately, you will just get attacked for suggesting such a thing and will be told that "Dungeons are for gearing up newbs and alts".

/Sigh.

[Gilian]

Or we just go back to heroic being really heroic (from heroic being normal) and stop slacking.

[Ikkatsu]

No. Emblems are for gearing up new players. New players will not be able to CC. So these Epic dungeons will only be ran by people gearing their offset. And also, nobody wants to run a 5 man and cc when you could aoe through them like you can now.

Sorry? When did you become the singular voice of all Warcraft players?

I would LOVE the game to be made difficult and require CC instead of the AoE snorefest that we have now.

[Talen]

So we have regular dungeons and heroics, but after some gearing or running a few of the 5-mans all the new dungeons are a straight up emblem grind. At the same time, everyone complains that all the older instances are no challenge at their current gear level and easily blasted through at top speeds.

So why don't we take the emblem system and apply it to a third tier of difficulty? No one uses the gear in anything but the ICC or ToC dungeons anyway, so the loot system could go as follows:
Regular-->Regular Drops
Heroic--->Heroic Drops
Epic Dungeon--->Badges

The epic dungeons could increase numbers substantially and actually reintroduce the need of CC and some prioritized killing instead of just burning down everything with AoE. Thoughts on this?

Bad idea.

First - it means another round of designing, populating, tuning and creating gear for a dungeon. Effeort best svaed for a new dungeon.
Second - all dungeosn become eaqsy at some point int he game. Eventually, any class can out gear it enough to make it a cakewalk, even soloable.

EJL

[tangocore]

No. Emblems are for gearing up new players. New players will not be able to CC. So these Epic dungeons will only be ran by people gearing their offset. And also, nobody wants to run a 5 man and cc when you could aoe through them like you can now.

at 70, regular instances required cc to go smootly while heroic required cc to not die, wtf is with: new players will not be able to CC?

[Izenhart]

Why, would people have a 1 hour run for AN rather than a 10 minute run, just to have the badges they had before?

And anyways making an encounter you've been doing for 1 year in easymode "challenging", won't make it funnier to do.

[Ikkatsu]

Why, would people have a 1 hour run for AN rather than a 10 minute run, just to have the badges they had before?

And anyways making an encounter you've been doing for 1 year in easymode "challenging", won't make it funnier to do.

Improved Rewards.

Instead of AoE'ing your way to welfare epics, you can only earn them by doing DIFFICULT 5 mans requiring CC or doing raids.

Normal Dungeons = Blues
Heroic Dungeons = Low iLvl Epics
Epic Dungeons = Badges for Tier

Epic = CC or you die mode (think of completing Street Fighter IV on Hardest Difficulty, with no continues)

And its not about being "Funnier" [im sure you meant "More Fun"?], its about being challenging with a suitable reward... not all this "OH HAI, I CLICK AOE AND BADGES APPEAR IN MY BAG" attitude.

Anyone who disagrees is a Donald.

[Gilian]

Bad idea.

First - it means another round of designing, populating, tuning and creating gear for a dungeon. Effeort best svaed for a new dungeon.
Second - all dungeosn become eaqsy at some point int he game. Eventually, any class can out gear it enough to make it a cakewalk, even soloable.

EJL

Bad idea.

Another dungeon we can run once by having an aoe fest and then get bored of it.

Well they made Halls of Reflection wich is not easy. You need to CC if you want to survive the first room, but instead what happens is people asking for better geared players instead of learning to play proparly. Then you come here blaming dungeons are boring because everyone outgears them.

[dazline]

problem with this idea is that with the random dungeon tool, how would this work? say you land a paladin tank, a feral druid a idk 2 warriors. That group doesnt really have much for cc so instance gone to crap.

[bulvorg]

This post fails, why? If they would remove the emblems from the Hc's now, new people would get stuck. NOONE raids ulduar or naxxramas for other than weekly and possibly achivements ( atleast not on my serv ). And noone would want an ilvl 200 guy in your ICC or ToC.

[Thela]

Blizzard has already mentioned 10m "raiding" might be coming to the LFG content system.

What needs to be added is a 1-time daily 10m "raid" that reflects the difficulty of a raid, but the size of a large heroic. Remove the weekly raid dungeon aspect of 10/25m.

Make the content flexible and the all the bosses randomized similar to the second boss in ToC 5m content. Maybe a new raid format per patch to reflect the new storyline advances.

Raid reward at the end might be something like 2-5 of the current top tier content badges/emblems. No badge/emblem reward for not finishing. Item drops similar to the patch 10m item drop content to fill out the boss loot tables.

This would allow them to remove the weekly raid of cheese content, allow guilds to push themselves to handle harder actual raid format with a better badge availibility for items that seem to be more costly by the patch in the terms of tier sets and non-set comparable items.

[Ikkatsu]

problem with this idea is that with the random dungeon tool, how would this work? say you land a paladin tank, a feral druid a idk 2 warriors. That group doesnt really have much for cc so instance gone to crap.

Where is the 5th member?

And the Random LFG tool is intelligent, it can be programmed to always include one class with CC.

And i think ONLY warriors are don't have a CC...

Druids and Roots.
Paladins have Repentance.
Priests have Shackle [undead] & Mind Control.
Shamans have Hex.
Mages and Sheep.
Death Knights have Chains of Ice.
Rogues have Sap.
Hunters have Ice Trap.
Warlock have Seduce.

Not exactly hard to form a group with CC now is it...

[Ikkatsu]

This post fails, why? If they would remove the emblems from the Hc's now, new people would get stuck. NOONE raids ulduar or naxxramas for other than weekly and possibly achivements ( atleast not on my serv ). And noone would want an ilvl 200 guy in your ICC or ToC.

Maybe he was talking about when Cataclysm hits?

I think everyone would agree it is pretty stupid to do it in the current expansion, considering it is as the end of its life-cycle anyway.

[Keller]

this would bring back life to the game of PvE heroics - About the loot, They dont need to design new loot, they can just Use the "HEROIC" Stamp and boost it by 13 item levels, and give frosts at the end aswell. The encounters will need to be significantly harder to do , take an for example, Boost boss damage, increase add HP , Increase add damage. Give some intensity for christ's sake, As a healer every eroic I do is as fun as watching paint dry, I'm playing Peggle most of the time. Back in TBC, heroics were harder, I'm not talking about gear Makes u faceroll it hard , i'm talking about use your BRAIN or die like a douchebag.
Another failsafe/idea comes to mind, make timers. "You only get Heroic loot while the timer is up". I mean seriously, casuals would still get their content tour. But people that like difficulty shouldnt be left out.


Now the question is: HOW TO KEEP DOUCHEBAGS OUT OF THESE HARD HARD INSTANCES? I have no freaking clue.


I support this. I support it fully.

[Samin]

Yes, because hard content stops people from complaining...not.

I hope in Cataclysm we just get 5 man dungeons more regularly with new raids. So some 'easy' dungeons that are faceroll with half T11 - just for gearing up. But with T12, they should release dungeons that are like ICC 5mans now. Basically continue the way they startet with 3.2 and ToC. Yes ToC was challenging in the beginning when you had mostly heroic (200) gear. Not as challenging as ICC 5mans, but a good start.
Still - you will ALWAYS outgear the instance one day. I hope Blizzard will never implement scaling mobs (and I doubt they will). It's natural result of progression. If you look back at stuff you had to do in your first years of school. Like basic math. You now laugh about it, but if you remember back, the first time you had to do (if it was in school or earlier) it it was not easy. You had to learn it. Really, just think back and imagine how difficult things can be if you don't have the knowledge yet or the gear to do something (of course you can solve complex [and binominal equations are not complex] math problems without a calc, solely by skill - but a calc helps you solve it faster)

[Azutael]

Druids and Roots.
Paladins have Repentance.
Priests have Shackle [undead] & Mind Control.
Shamans have Hex.
Mages and Sheep.
Death Knights have Chains of Ice.
Rogues have Sap.
Hunters have Ice Trap.
Warlock have Seduce.

Not exactly hard to form a group with CC now is it...

Repentance, only as retribution.
Shackle, well only undeads as you said. Mind controll, well if the instance is so hard you probably need that players dps or healing, so its not very usefull.
Hex, yeah a 1 min cd. very usefull, also breaks very easily.
Sheep, its very good. But only works on humanoids and beasts.
Chains of ice, eh yeah ok a slow. How nice, worthless for caster mobs.
Sap, even better than sheep.
Hunters cc is also very good, if the hunter is good...
Seduce, yeah shares diminishing returns with fear, breaks early, have a cast time, noone likes using the succubus anyway.
Roots, a cc that can break on dmg that also does dmg to the target. Breaks even faster than any other cc, and worthless on casters.
Warriors, yeh poor abstards dont have shit. Ofcourse they could try to offtank a mob... but nooo "i r deeps".

So we end up with what, 3 classes who have reliable crowd controll. Mage, rogue and hunter.

This is ofcourse not always the case with organized groups with friends. But for random groups, you will be booted if you arent considered usefull.

[dddmaster]

you could 5 man naxx10...