The "Stam is all that matters" tanks

[Solitare-sp]

Being that squishy is probably more of a result of the tank not knowing how to mitigate damage with his skills than lacking avoidance.

If a tank dies and still has Last Stand or Shield Wall up, its just as much his fault as the healer's.

He's a paladin. Keep holy shield up all the time, and apart from Divine Protection you don't have much else.

Which is why this whole thing seems a little odd. As long as he's got the required gear (ie T9) even with Stam stacking they should be more than capable of taking U10 on.

[Cilraaz]

wtfamireading.jpg

So if he doesn't know how to mitigate damage but he still does it (LS & SW) and he dies it's still his fault for dying ? I don't get you.

I believe they meant if the tank dies without ever using LS & SW ("still up" = still available, unused), then it's also their fault. I agree with this.

[Ceara]

I believe they meant if the tank dies without ever using LS & SW ("still up" = still available, unused), then it's also their fault. I agree with this.

This is what I was referring to.

I missed the second post explaining the situation so I'm sure my post could have made a little more sense, but there are other ways to mitigate incoming damage that aren't "purely mitigation skills" such as silences and stuns.

[harky]

He's a paladin. Keep holy shield up all the time, and apart from Divine Protection you don't have much else.

??? It makes me so depressed when Paladins don't take DG and don't understand how to use the HoS glyph. Paladins technically have 4 cooldowns, though one is proc based and two of them require macros to use efficiently.

[Deleted]

i luv stamina

[iglocska]

He's a paladin. Keep holy shield up all the time, and apart from Divine Protection you don't have much else.

Which is why this whole thing seems a little odd. As long as he's got the required gear (ie T9) even with Stam stacking they should be more than capable of taking U10 on.

T9? For U10? Really???

[Deleted]

In this thread people don't seem to know shit.

It's been proven countless of times that EH > Avoidance, practically making a tank's priority scale Armor (/Resistance) > Stamina > Avoidance > TPS-stats.

And as for gearing/gemming; As a Protection Warrior I've not got a single point of expertise rating and I even try to get rid of hit rating in favor for other, more useful, stats. There's not a single fight where I've found threat an issue, and if I ever did, I'd change my glyph setup or spec, not my gear.

That being said, the tank the OP is talking about probably did something horribly wrong. That, or what Propain said.

[vkei]

yes EH>all other surivial stats , all u need is not getting 1 shotted (or say dieing b4 your healer can land the next cast)

if u get rid of all exp./hit gear and still have no problem on threat , chance are your DDer suck or your hunters MDing every CD that they can use the time for more DPS or even your rogues is TotTing a tank that should use on the DDers to boot DPS , a tank's TPS is directly affecting your rDPS in many different way , even say u make the other tank have to stop too long after a tank change because your threat suck , no1 OT != enough threat , if u really giving up any threat stat for EH , u should be doing something u don't really need and your raid can't pull out the best DPS because of u

u can get really really low hit/exp. if u don't want them ,u can get more EH ,getting soooo much threat is useless but giving up your threat for EH that is not need is not a good idea too,as a tank , u should be able to hold threat even there is no hunters no rogue and all your DDers have no -threat talent , that is a tank's job , both EH and threat is something u need enough but not the most u can , u should not stack one and igonre the other

same as healers,healers should keep a tank up even he take every singal hit from the boss as long as he is not 1 shotted , that is the healer's job to keep up the tank

[harky]

In this thread people don't seem to know shit.

It's been proven countless of times that EH > Avoidance, practically making a tank's priority scale Armor (/Resistance) > Stamina > Avoidance > TPS-stats.

Should have read the thread. Point was pure stamina stacking, not necessarily what will net the higher EH.. I personally prefer TTL calculations though since the actual EH requirements of Wrath content are so low, especially in ICC. Once beyond the require comfortable EH for something stacking more doesn't make you any easier to heal and becomes purely a measure of how long you can survive with no heals unless you are gaining that EH through armor. Beyond minimum thresholds on EH it's actually armor/avoidance that best increases TTL when being healed. EH is not and has never been the be all-end all of tank survival. All EH does is calculates how much raw damage you can absorb before dying with no heals. It's very, very useful, but as you've so kindly illustrated, often misused.

[rabbimojo]

In the game's current state, the only reason for a tank to prioritize avoidance over EH would be to save the healer(s) mana.

A shitty reason prompted by shitty healers, but a reason nonetheless I guess.

Except, of course, that you generally don't have time to reactively heal, so no mana is saved. You could have a healer or two stopcasting but it's really still not a great idea.

That's why people don't stack avoidance: It's high enough, and you can't make a qualitative change with it anymore.

Maybe this has been said, I don't have time to dig around and I doubt most of the people who read this have either, but maybe this will convince some people: Consider it a bit like DPS stats, assuming you could just choose budgets at will.
If you've got a nuker with 100,000 spellpower but 0% crit and 0% haste.. Then crit and haste are far more valuable than spellpower, by budget. This is equivalent to a tank with, say, 500k unbuffed HP and armor cap, right now. They'd have so much EH that it would be pointless to add more, and avoidance stacking would be valuable.

Flip it around and you get the current situations.
Right now, generally most DPSers have so much crit from talents/raid buffs that their "pool" stats (strength, sp, agi, etc) are far more valuable. Many specs are pushing into crit caps already, without ever gemming or trying for it in any way. Similarly, tanks ungemmed/chanted, at current progression gear levels (and probably all of them before) already have so much more avoidance on their gear than stamina that it would be silly to ever gem for avoidance.

Though I think it's ok if people choose to maximize budget by gemming stam hybrids to pick up decent bonuses. EH is the king of tank metrics right now, but that doesn't mean that avoidance is completely ineffectual. It still affects whether you die, it just "kicks in less often" in a sense. Avoidance is generally only going to be important when your healers aren't landing enough on the tank. There, dodging one additional attack may give them time to get their crap together. Still doesn't -really- justify gemming/chanting for it, but I wouldn't judge a tank for bucking that particular trend.

[thetaurenrogue]

I dont think that people realize how bad gemming or enchanting avoidance is at decent gear levels.

Dr are hitting you pretty damn hard around toc 25 gear but your character tooltip does not show it. Now imagine if you could gem either green avoidance gems or epic stam gems, that is what it is like.

Also each point of avoidance becomes better and better the closer to 102.4 avoidance is reached, which is why it was so good in bc. With dr and now icc radiance you can come absolutely no where near that or even 50 percent after dr which makes it once again not as good.

Stam and armor meanwhile scale extemely well together. And since higher ilvl gear has higher armor and stam as well as their being quite a few +armor peices in icc and some in toc as well as the buff which increases health they become much better.

So stacking stam was the best in nax and ulduar and now people have way more armor and dr are hitting much harder and in icc they have 20 percent less base avoidance and people argue stam and armor is still not the way to go.

tldr people are dumb

[Yocahu]

So I created an account to respond to this. I totally agree with stam stacking and I do it on my druid but that is because my gear allowes me to and maintain good threat and avoidance. I was not however stam stacking in Naxx and most of UD and from the sounds of it this guy isnt Defense capped. That is your fault for not asking him if he was. I know it is almost a given this late in the game that all warriors/pally's and dk's are D capped but from the sound of it if this guy is getting crushed so easy because he was not.

[Deleted]

Well , it's not really the tanks. We're kinda forces to stack stamina, because it usually u join VoA10 and its like: Lol, 36K health. *You have been removed from the group*

[Solitare-sp]

T9? For U10? Really???

Well, it's what you can get from running random heroics. Theres no real reason why tanks shouldn't have T9, as they won't have T8 or T7 most likely.

[Gnomepowa]

There's no definitive answer to this. However there are a few things that need to be taken into consideration. First of all, any improvement is a relative improvement. 30 stam to a tank with 40k means something different to a tank barely pushing 30k. Then there's the issue of diminishing returns. What can you really stack? And of course the damage type. Spikes, constant damage, etc. It was said before, it matters what you're tanking. Some1 said already that you are pretty low on avoidance in ICC by design. If a boss hits hard, you must be dumb to not socket stam and enchant stam. Also the gear lvl gives you enough avoidance so you don't need to gem for it. One thing is that you cant hope avoidance will save your ass. Avoidance is there in order to not make healing a non-stop spam. Stam is there to make sure you can be healed. Given the dmg a boss does a tank needs to ask himself "Can I take 2-3 hits without being healed" or "can I survive 3 seconds with no heals". If you cant take 2 consecutive hits you are more a liability as a tank. Even with 75% avoidance, there are still chances you will get 2 hits in a row. If you cant survive those whats the point then?

I see all these guides saying unless its +12 stam or +9 dont match the color. For a +6 socket matched you get 21 stam vs the unmatched 30. Assume 10 gems... that gives in the worst case scenario about 1k-1.5k difference in stam. For a tank with 40k stam (worst case scenario) 1k is about a 2.5% increase. Is that better than a 2.5% increase in avoidance? Maybe... maybe not. It all depends on how hard you get hit, depends on the encounter.

There's no absolute truth. Hell even if you have the ideal balance you still need to take into consideration how good your heals are. What's needed is a good look at the overall picture...all stats, boss encounter, skill level of both tank and healers, etc. With the same gear on the same boss different healers shown very different performances. So be smart about it because there not only one rule that you need to follow. The game is complex enough to give options and if you think a little bit you should be fine.

[hoot80]

In this thread people don't seem to know shit.

It's been proven countless of times that EH > Avoidance, practically making a tank's priority scale Armor (/Resistance) > Stamina > Avoidance > TPS-stats.

And as for gearing/gemming; As a Protection Warrior I've not got a single point of expertise rating and I even try to get rid of hit rating in favor for other, more useful, stats. There's not a single fight where I've found threat an issue, and if I ever did, I'd change my glyph setup or spec, not my gear.

That being said, the tank the OP is talking about probably did something horribly wrong. That, or what Propain said.

You have 0 expertise and drop hit rating every chance you get? If you don't have any threat issues then I assume you are just running heroics with dps that are pulling about 1.5k. Otherwise you are full of crap. Show me a tank that has 0 expertise and very low hit rating and I'll show you 18 or 19 dps in my guild that will pull threat off of him while popping every threat reducing CD that they have and pallies throwing Salv up on them. Also having 0% chance to stop parry haste is just plain stupid. Maybe try doing some research or go join a real 25 man raid before you start posting jibberish about how 1337 you are with your 2500 threat per second.

[Vegelus]

It is the defence cap. Period. Geming for more deff after beeing crit imune is just stupid, getting more deff from gear uppgrades is NOT bad tho.
Once you get the critt immune you are done.
That doesn't mean that deff is useless after, but you would be better of aiming on stam instead

You're wrong.

1. It's only minimum, not a cap. Look at some old blue post confirming that. Gemming def/stam while going for better bonuses is actually really good thing.
2. Defence is the best possible avoidance stat for both warriors and paladins, try reading some theory on tankspot before writing about tanks' mechanics.

[Lasica]

I don't think you know who effective health (EH) works.

Looking at my own tank, I gear for stamina and armour only. This gives me 55K health and 33K armour. Now lets say I follow OPs advice and gear purely for avoidance so my buffed health drops to 50K and my armour to 30K.

Now lets say I'm facing boss who melees once/second for 40K damage.

33K armour gives me 66.4% damage reduction, so that 40K hit becomes 13.4K
30K armour gives me 64.3% damage reduction, so that 40K hit becomes 14.26K damage

My high stam/armour tank can survive 4 hits of 13.4K before death (dies on 5th hit).
My high avoidance tank can survive 3 hits of 14.26K before death (dies on 4th hit).
even if armour is the same, avoidance gearing still dies in 4 hits instead of 5.

Now all the avoidance in the world is nice, but random is still random and you can dodge and parry all you want but sooner or later you are going to get hit and get hit a lot.

That is why effective health (stam + armour) is > avoidance.

If you don't understand that then there is no helping you.

Do you want tank that dies in 5 seconds or one that dies in 4 seconds?

[tlitd]

It seems that many of the posters in this very thread are oblivious of one of the elementary logical fallacies, the false dichotomy.

Also, some of the obnoxious posts above exhibit a blissful ignorance of what EH and TPS output really are. Threshold metrics. As such, probably the most misused concepts in the world... of Warcraft.

[YouMadMan]

Didnt need 7 page to see the op is an idiot. Srsly whine about stam stacking then report the stam stacking tank was having problem to live in a spell damage type encounter??? HELLO DUMB ASS WHAT ELSE WOULD HE STACK FOR THAT? Parry?