Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements

[Morv]

well at least i only have to log on once a week now..
i can deal with that

[Jiai]

Wow, logic fail.

You have A and B.

Your choices are {A, B, A+B}. Blizzard just gives you {A, B}.

Less choice.

If you can do A+B, Blizzard have to balance the game (drops, gold per boss, badges) around it, making people that cannot (or do not want to) do both raid feel a little behind. And I don't think doing both raid is supposed the be the "good" or "hardcore" way to use the choice between 10 and 25.

[Direfen]

Seriously what is wrong with some people? Can't you see this is a good change?

10man and 25man will both drop the same iLevel gear, which means gear inflation will be at an all time low in comparison to what they did in WotLK.

Both raid types will drop the same gear, only 25man will drop MORE at one time than 10man, meaning gearing up in 25man could be faster than gearing up in 10man.

Hell for all we know, they might even throw in a few extras in 25man mode, like extra items which are only obtainable in 25 such as weapons/trinkets.

As with Badges and Emblems, running the 25man mode will most likely reward you with more Badges/Emblems than running the 10man mode.

Two things however that I hope for is that they resume allowing Tier tokens to be drops from raids and not bought with Emblems, and make Hardmodes more like Ulduar than ICC. Uld hardmodes are just more creative and interesting than ICC's way.

Nontheless, I for one enjoy this change as the difference between 25man and 10man loot is removed, but 25man raiders will still have their benefits over 10man raiders, being extra Emblems and more items dropping at one time. Also enjoying the 2 raids with 5-6 bosses per patch instead of one huge one with 11 bosses since it will add variety so we dont end up staring at the same environment every week

hmm it's wotlk all over again... wb free epix.. 5+ per boss in 25 mans ...

People like you annoy me, who always think of the worst case scenario without even considering what was just said.

[TankGoat]

Wow, logic fail.

You have A and B.

Your choices are {A, B, A+B}. Blizzard just gives you {A, B}.

Less choice.

Except that A+B is so good that there is no reason to choose A nor B
This is called a dominating choice, can be even worst then none.

[ragingsoul]

Seriously what is wrong with some people? Can't you see this is a good change?

10man and 25man will both drop the same iLevel gear, which means gear inflation will be at an all time low in comparison to what they did in WotLK.

Both raid types will drop the same gear, only 25man will drop MORE at one time than 10man, meaning gearing up in 25man could be faster than gearing up in 10man.

Hell for all we know, they might even throw in a few extras in 25man mode, like extra items which are only obtainable in 25 such as weapons/trinkets.

As with Badges and Emblems, running the 25man mode will most likely reward you with more Badges/Emblems than running the 10man mode.

Two things however that I hope for is that they resume allowing Tier tokens to be drops from raids and not bought with Emblems, and make Hardmodes more like Ulduar than ICC. Uld hardmodes are just more creative and interesting than ICC's way.

Nontheless, I for one enjoy this change as the difference between 25man and 10man loot is removed, but 25man raiders will still have their benefits over 10man raiders, being extra Emblems and more items dropping at one time. Also enjoying the 2 raids with 5-6 bosses per patch instead of one huge one with 11 bosses since it will add variety so we dont end up staring at the same environment every week

People like you annoy me, who always think of the worst case scenario without even considering what was just said.

maybe because some people like me are dpsing 25men, and tanking 10men, with 2 different group of friends (my guild, and old friends from previous guilds) and I don't want to reroll another character to enjoy both of them?

[megathrall]

Seriously what is wrong with some people? Can't you see this is a good change

Both raid types will drop the same gear, only 25man will drop MORE at one time than 10man, meaning gearing up in 25man could be faster than gearing up in 10man.

I really don't see the logic here, how do u figure that in 25man people will get geared faster? Because 25mans will drop more loot? Well duh...ofc it will drop more loot because there are 25 idiots there not just 10 , so it will be the same gearing up rate as far as i can see which i find kinda stupid. I mean im all for 25 and 10 sharing the same lockout but this is just lame, next step will be making legendaries available in 10mans and making bosses even easier than they are atm

[Thundercougr]

Wow, logic fail.

You have A and B.

Your choices are {A, B, A+B}. Blizzard just gives you {A, B}.

Less choice.

...how is that different from anything I said? THERE IS STILL A CHOICE THERE. HE IS SAYING IT TAKES AWAY THE CHOICE, YET ALSO SAYS HE DOESN'T WANT TO CHOOSE. Is there something there you don't understand? Don't respond if you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

[rkma]

If you can do A+B, Blizzard have to balance the game (drops, gold per boss, badges) around it, making people that cannot (or do not want to) do both raid feel a little behind.

That's not quite true since you can succeed just fine doing 10-man or 25-man only, but in any case...

SO WHAT?

You're taking something away from people who enjoy it, because a bunch of whiny babies (you) don't think they should have it. It's spoiled rotten crybaby nonsense. What does it hurt you if they raid 10 and 25? They get more loot, and so?

And I don't think doing both raid is supposed the be the "good" or "hardcore" way to use the choice between 10 and 25.

And it isn't. Not everyone who raids both 10 and 25 man do it because it's "hardcore" or "required." They do it because it's fun and it lets them play the game with more of their friends.

It's up to you to explain why you want to ruin the game for other people.

[ragingsoul]

I really don't see the logic here, how do u figure that in 25man people will get geared faster? Because 25mans will drop more loot? Well duh...ofc it will drop more loot because there are 25 idiots there not just 10 , so it will be the same gearing up rate as far as i can see which i find kinda stupid. I mean im all for 25 and 10 sharing the same lockout but this is just lame, next step will be making legendaries available in 10mans and making bosses even easier than they are atm

see it that way:

if a boss loot table can have 8 drops, 2 drops on 10men, 6 drops on 25men, the chance to see your loot drop will be higher on 25men than 10men (25% chance vs 75% chance).

no, the raid lockout if unchanged is the lame thing here.

someone posted this on the official forum.

Alot of the issues people seem to have with this is the lockouts. Being locked to "a fail raid" means you can't then go to the 10 or 25 version of it.

I think this speaks more to the raid lockout system than it does to this change, which I think is a great change. But I agree that the raid lockout system is overly punishing as it currently exists.

That's why I've always wished Blizzard would establish raid lockouts not by Raid ID but by an individual boss system. Basically, you can do any raid as many times a week as you want, with many different groups of people. BUT, you can only receive loot, badges and gold from each boss the first time you kill them, once per week. After that the items cannot be looted to you from that boss.

So basically if you join a PuG and down the first half of the raid, then have to go to bed because it's 4 AM, and a few days later your guild is running the raid and needs you, you can still join their raid and help them kill bosses... but you'll only be able to receive loot from the bosses past the ones you've killed earlier that week.

This would also eliminate the terrible feeling of joining a raid with bosses already dead and getting saved to a failed raid. It is extremely hard to replace people in a raid that has downed even one boss, because new people know they will get saved without possibly even downing a single new boss. In this new system, you could join a group that has, say, the first wing down already, clear the plague wing, and then the next day you can join a fresh run and get your loot from the first four bosses.

As for what bosses would already be cleared, it would be based off the raid leader's progression. So if half the guild has already done the first wing in a 10-man earlier that week, and now the whole guild is doing a 25-man together, you could a) Have someone from the 10-man be the raid leader and everyone starts halfway through, the other 15 people then having to clear the first bosses of the raid another time, or b) have one of the guildies who weren't in the 10-man the raid leader so that everyone kills all the original bosses again together, but the original 10-man group will only be able to get loot from the bosses past the ones they've already killed.

I know it might be a technical thing to code that might take time, but combined with the recent changes to raiding I think the above idea would make it sooo much more stress-free and fun, without reducing raid difficulty at all. People could focus on the game and the experience instead of worrying about getting their full X badges a week, or worried about whether their guild might need them later in the week so should they join this good looking PuG or not.

something to thing about.

[DanDaManZ06]

Same lockout = Lose
Same loot table = Win

well said

[Quesly]

This is great news. Anyone QQing, hasn't sat down to think about it yet. This will not kill off 25 Man raids as 25 man raids will most likely be more efficient at gearing players. What this will do is allow smaller Guilds that are just as skilled as some of the larger Guilds compete for World First Achievements, since there will be no 10/25 Achievements and just Raid Achievements. So kudos to Blizz this is a great change.

why should I bother putting a 25 man raid together when I can just get a 10 man and get the same loot for far less effort? o and lol @ smaller guilds competing for world first why guilds like paragon who get world firsts put a stupid amount of effort into getting those world firsts taking off work/school/other engagements just to get those bosses killed.

[pfunkmort]

Seriously what is wrong with some people? Can't you see this is a good change?

Nontheless, I for one enjoy this change as the difference between 25man and 10man loot is removed, but 25man raiders will still have their benefits over 10man raiders, being extra Emblems and more items dropping at one time. Also enjoying the 2 raids with 5-6 bosses per patch instead of one huge one with 11 bosses since it will add variety so we dont end up staring at the same environment every week

splitting up the raids into smaller ones doesn't necessitate the 10/25 merger. also, as someone who's already clearing hicc in one night every week (minus LK), and way overstocked in emblems, it's not that enticing to have to deal with smaller raids, with continued gating (*cough* toc *cough*)...and the "bonus" of additional emblems doesn't really do much for me. All in all, people will either play it or they won't...but it's not like this is a GOOD thing for people who are seriously committed to progression content. or people who are at a loss for more things to do when the raids become trivial and they have MONTHS before more stuff comes out. and lastly...and this is my shallow point...where's the motivation to do 25 man content? seriously...it's not going to be harder, you're not going to get more for it (less competition in 10 man when your stuff drops), and you get no sense of accomplishment for doing the hardest of hard things...because gear saturation (of your bis gear) is going to skyrocket - arguably without any major increase in the ability of the various characters who suddenly are getting it (who now have to be catered to, EVEN MORE, in the design of future raids, watering down content even more). that's pessimist pfunkmort though. we won't really know how it plays out until we play it.

for ME...I'd want more raids released (even if they're small ones), an end to gating, and a serious commitment to push the difficulty of the raid content (which, if you think you're getting by homogenizing 10/25 man, you're kidding yourself).

[Adragerxo]

> I call fail on being locked out if you choose to do 10 man and your guild needs dps and calls on you and OH...sorry...I did the 10 man and can't.
so...I gotta hope and pray that I get in the 25 man and if I don't I can't run the 10 man cause maybe they will need someone and I have to be available.
This is a really bad Idea and is going to piss A LOT of people off.
but of course...Blizzard doesn't care what the people think.

[Jiai]

That's not quite true since you can succeed just fine doing 10-man or 25-man only, but in any case...

SO WHAT?

You're taking something away from people who enjoy it, because a bunch of whiny babies (you) don't think they should have it. It's spoiled rotten crybaby nonsense. What does it hurt you if they raid 10 and 25? They get more loot, and so?

And it isn't. Not everyone who raids both 10 and 25 man do it because it's "hardcore" or "required." They do it because it's fun and it lets them play the game with more of their friends.

It's up to you to explain why you want to ruin the game for other people.

This game is focused around loot, therefore the most efficient way to get it is very important, because players will just use it. Doing both raid is currently the best way to gear, they are removing it because they don't like it.

And you should awake, you are the whiny baby currently.

[Rootofalleli]

maybe because some people like me are dpsing 25men, and tanking 10men, with 2 different group of friends (my guild, and old friends from previous guilds) and I don't want to reroll another character to enjoy both of them?

Leveling has been really fast since boa gear came out, granting up to +25% exp. With rested XP, you zoom through levels. LFD makes it easier to get instances than ever. You don't have to hit max level with zero knowledge of grouping, to say nothing of the boredom of questing alone for 60, 70, 80 levels. Cataclysm will even make the crappy old zones filled with crappy +str/spirit mail quest rewards cease to suck. There will be new stories to experience and new races to get to know. It's also really handy to level up a second set of professions... I love having enchanting and inscription available on alts, and I wish I had jewelcrafting.

I know I can't simply argue from personal experience, but even the most casual players in my casual guild have at least one alt over level 60. Most have multiple 80s. Making a DK and going through the starting quests greatly enhanced the story of WotLK. Finally, playing a few classes is a HUGE benefit to raiders and especially raid leaders who want to understand the capabilities of their groups. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with playing only one character, but there is great deal that is right about playing more than one. And if you want to raid a lot and have some different experiences, alts are great.

[rkma]

This game is focused around loot, therefore the most efficient way to get it is very important, because players will just use it. Doing both raid is currently the best way to gear, they are removing it because they don't like it.

And you should awake, you are the whiny baby currently.

Your argument is the exact argument for why this will kill 25-man raids, which you don't seem to have a problem with. As for why 10-man guilds PuG 25-man raids: it's because people like you complained that they were to hard, so Blizzard nerfed it into oblivion. Law of unintended consequences FTL.

The current system allows people to raid 10, raid 25, or raid both. The new system is guaranteed to eliminate one, and possibly two of those alternatives. And you're applauding it.

[Adragerxo]

most people who don't care about the 25 man raids are those who aren't in a guild who have enough to do 25 man raids,because if they were they would understand the time and effort it takes to run a 25 man and getting everyone online on time when its up on the calendar,so what's a 25 man guild to do ? only take the same 25 people every week and to hell with the rest of the back up?
Seriously being locked out if you do 10 or 25 from the other is crap.

[ragingsoul]

Leveling has been really fast since boa gear came out, granting up to +25% exp. With rested XP, you zoom through levels. LFD makes it easier to get instances than ever. You don't have to hit max level with zero knowledge of grouping, to say nothing of the boredom of questing alone for 60, 70, 80 levels. Cataclysm will even make the crappy old zones filled with crappy +str/spirit mail quest rewards cease to suck. There will be new stories to experience and new races to get to know. It's also really handy to level up a second set of professions... I love having enchanting and inscription available on alts, and I wish I had jewelcrafting.

I know I can't simply argue from personal experience, but even the most casual players in my casual guild have at least one alt over level 60. Most have multiple 80s. Making a DK and going through the starting quests greatly enhanced the story of WotLK. Finally, playing a few classes is a HUGE benefit to raiders and especially raid leaders who want to understand the capabilities of their groups. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with playing only one character, but there is great deal that is right about playing more than one. And if you want to raid a lot and have some different experiences, alts are great.

I don't think you understood me. I've been raid leader for quite some time, and have more than 3 lvl 80 at this moment. but I Do like to dps and tank on the SAME character, and I fucking hate lvling. I will NOT level a toon as the same class to enjoy 2 specs. it's ridiculous.
I don't even get the purpose of dual spec with that honestly. are 25men guilds only gonna need 3 tanks for 10men AND 25men now? lol.. I thought they wanted to increase the numbers of tanks, not decrease it.
All those dps mainspec and tanking offspec for 10mens will go away like this. I was tank for 2 years, still enjoy it. My current guild doesn't need more tanks, I'm dpsing in 25men, and tanking ICC10men with some old friends as tank, if I'm only gonna be able to dps in a guild, then what's my tanking gear for? heroics? .. ..

[Barbysalt]

...how is that different from anything I said? THERE IS STILL A CHOICE THERE. HE IS SAYING IT TAKES AWAY THE CHOICE, YET ALSO SAYS HE DOESN'T WANT TO CHOOSE. Is there something there you don't understand? Don't respond if you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

If you read I'm saying I don't want to choose which one I get locked out on because i tend to do both 10 and 25 mans. I personally do a 10 man icc guild run with many close friends and later in the week do a 25 icc with people who are not in my guild but are good friends of mine. This change would force me to choose which group of friends I raid with. Sometimes talking to people are like trying to talk to a wall.

[Jiai]

Your argument is the exact argument for why this will kill 25-man raids, which you don't seem to have a problem with. As for why 10-man guilds PuG 25-man raids: it's because people like you complained that they were to hard, so Blizzard nerfed it into oblivion. Law of unintended consequences FTL.

The current system allows people to raid 10, raid 25, or raid both. The new system is guaranteed to eliminate one, and possibly two of those alternatives. And you're applauding it like a jackass.

If they give 10 badges, 5 items and 100 gold per boss, I'm pretty sure everybody would make their best to play in 25. There are probably lower numbers that can balance the number of players between 10men et 25 men.

And stop trying to point at me, you don't know me.