warlocks in endgame raiding

[awebz]

In BC locks destroyed mage damage and only had rogues to battle with for the top spot.
How are things now? are mages beating locks? what does the top 5 look like generally

I'm talking 25m hardmode raiding

[harky]

Mages were underpowered in PVE in TBC. So... also, Warlocks generally didn't beat good BM Hunters, who regularly beat Rogues. Locks were good in TBC, but not exceptional.

Mages, Hunters and Rogues all beat Locks. So do Feral Druids and Fury Warriors. On many fights DKs will also beat you and Ret Paladins might as well. So... we're in pretty much the same spot, except that Mages got much deserved PVE buffs. Now why Fury and Feral are the way they are? I dunno, ask Blizz. It's pretty stupid.

[Prothean]

Mages were underpowered in PVE in TBC. So... also, Warlocks generally didn't beat good BM Hunters, who regularly beat Rogues. Locks were good in TBC, but not exceptional.

Mages, Hunters and Rogues all beat Locks. So do Feral Druids and Fury Warriors. On many fights DKs will also beat you and Ret Paladins might as well. So... we're in pretty much the same spot, except that Mages got much deserved PVE buffs. Now why Fury and Feral are the way they are? I dunno, ask Blizz. It's pretty stupid.

:/ must be raiding with some shit locks then

[Jashin]

classes I often find hard to top:

feral druids and fury warriors

that's about it currently

[infinitis]

:/ must be raiding with some shit locks then

or maybe ones who aren't padding meters when its unneeded, or your raid strat/setup doesn't maximize his /her dps chances ?

[harky]

It has nothing to do with how good/bad the Locks in my guild are. We have three who raid regularly and we're all pretty damn good. The issue is not us, the issue is that right now is that Hunters, Rogues, Mages, Ferals and Fury Warriors just put out more damage. Tossing up 13k+ on fights is nice, but that barely breaks top-5 in progression guilds anymore. You're going to be faced with Ferals and Warriors putting out 15k+ as well as Rogues and Mages giggling about how they break 14k with only two buttons. Hunter's aren't too far ahead, but if they're good and you're good whoever has RNG on their side is going to pull ahead. So many people fall into this trap thinking that their uber-leet skills are what's behind them topping meters and thinking classes are all very close to each other on DPS with their class on top. More often then not either they're playing a class that is a bit overpowered (Fury, Feral fit this bill right now), or they just think they're doing very well because they're in a guild with a lot of underachievers.

Edit: To clarify, I think Warlocks are fine. I have no issue with Rogue/Hunter/Mage beating us at all. It's worrisome that they do it with extremely simple rotations, but so what? What bothers me isn't them, they should roughly equal and beating us and losing to us depending on the fight. What bothers me is the tuning on hybrids. Fury/Feral in particular do too much damage in T10. Ferals have been doing more than they should since T7 and Blizzards retarded excuse is that they have a complicated rotation. Sorry, but uh... yeah, they don't. Pretty simple rotation since 3.3.3 and has been simple as long as you have a mangle-bot for a while.

[Bakis]

Agree, locks are fine. They should and will do "better" than mages on fights not bound around a short heroism/bloodlust (we are speaking hardmode). Basicly warlocks beat the crap out of mages in any regular fight and any short/burst fight they beat the crap out of us since arcane is still the spec-2-be and they got tons of cooldowns.
On the other hand halft the fights are just those fights and the other half not so yea 50/50 with a slight advantage to locks

[Gunwolf]

Warlocks are still powerful, and they can work around some obstacles other classes can't....like keeping up high dps while still moving, or faced away from the target. I still remember Ulduar25 HM being first done by stacking afflic warlocks who could dps while faced away, and rogues for fok interupts.

They put out good dps, and more importantly all 3 specs are somewhat viable, sure afflic/destro is better but demo is not as low as sub is for rogues.

I will say though that I have seen alot more good mages then locks personally, but that could be due to the "2 button rotation".

[Deleted]

Basically arp = win, being able to hard cap has fucked us over. If they couldn't hard cap then we wouldn't be in such a bad position

We can still pull of stupid numbers are certain fights, like bloodprinces I've managed to do 15k+

[Uffman]

At the moment, warlocks are in the position of doing pretty much everything pretty good. While we don't see our names on the WoL top lists, we compensate by other things.

Because single target personal DPS hardly matters. Warlocks bring wonderful utility as in Healthstones and Soulstones, a unique and quite overpowered Demonic Pact, multitarget-DPS, competative single and aoe dps.

[Puri]

All classes and dd specs are pretty close, so here you can really say player > class. There is no class at such a major disadvantage like mages in late pre 3.0 tbc.

[Frozenstine]

We can still pull of stupid numbers are certain fights, like bloodprinces I've managed to do 15k+

I have to assume a lot of that is just padding since our dots will still do damage on the princes that aren't active :P

[Lumocolor]

Stop looking at damage meters, if your guild is killing bosses then there is no problem. There will always be someone on top and someone on the bottom, as long as sh*t dies who cares.

[harky]

Basically arp = win, being able to hard cap has fucked us over. If they couldn't hard cap then we wouldn't be in such a bad position

We can still pull of stupid numbers are certain fights, like bloodprinces I've managed to do 15k+

Wow uh... so, you haven't noticed that Ferals have been #1/2 since Naxx, huh?

Oh and 15k on Blood Princes implies that you deliberately stacked meters by attacking a non-active Prince, which has no impact on the fight whatsoever. Good job on that. :

[burek]

no no, i bet he was actually the tank for keleseth... that 15+k was the damage he took every second

sad thing is, theres so much bullshit on these forums, like that guy just said... you simply cant do 15k on a patchwerk-like fight. other classes can, if the fight is short enough, but you just cant

or maybe youve managed it, you specced demo and just soulfired the prince with 1 hp

[gherkin]

15k is achievable by rolling dots on all three. Our main warlock keeps up corruption on all three and ends up near 12k without rolling UA too.


An amazing warlock will never beat an amazing rogue or arcane mage or hunter on fights where they are equally maxable. That said, I can keep pace with most of these classes in most fights by understanding the mechanics and working for my dps. Do they work for it just as hard? Probably.

[harky]

15k is achievable by rolling dots on all three. Our main warlock keeps up corruption on all three and ends up near 12k without rolling UA too.

Doing this means your main Warlock is ignoring the fight mechanics and is taking actions that are deliberately slowing the fight down by a large portion of his time using either DS, or SB to refresh. Assuming he has decently good gear, he's wasting roughly a third of his Shadow Bolts to produce net zero DPS. :-\

We had a Hunter app that was using Kill Shot on cooldown on non-active Princes to try and stack meters and impress the guild. It's what got his app denied ultimately. It lead us to look a little more into other fights. Was nice to find that he was completely ignoring assignments on Putricide and Dreamwalker as well. :

Honestly, this is kind of stuff is exactly why you have to take meters with a grain of salt. Luckily most of the parsing programs out there filter the over-kill amounts, so they're not polluted by this bullshit meter stacking. Almost as bad as Unholy DKs spreading diseases in P1 on LK so they can pretend like they're better than they are.

[pieki]

or he where keeping corruption up for procs? just like you might wanner throw a UA and a corruption on lady D even when youre assigned to stay on the boss.

[Bakis]

Been testing some stuff on the latest heroic LK fights with rolling corruption, UA on adds. It sure inflate numbers (which is meaningless) but the GCDs that were spent on anything but LK made it a bad option.
After testing all sorts of setups I ended up with having a macro to pop corruption onto a Shamblin Horror when Im moving from shadow traps instead, turned out to be the best way. The damage done on LK suffer too much compared to staying on him only if I put up corruption in any other case than when moving.

So yes, meters are really pointless unless looked upon in a bit more in depth.

[harky]

or he where keeping corruption up for procs? just like you might wanner throw a UA and a corruption on lady D even when youre assigned to stay on the boss.

The value of the procs is worth less than the value of the lost DPS. This would be retarded. Throwing up DoTs on adds on Deathwhisper is an entirely different prospect. You're putting up DoTs that will help kill adds. In the case of Princes you're throwing up Dots which do absolutely no damage. That's the whole point here... damage done to non-active Princes = 0 damage. You might as well be trying to DPS oozes on Rotface.