Why do people hate ToC? (the raid)

[ComputerNerd]

I'll give you Faction Champs as being pretty cool. Beasts was "not terrible" - which is the best I can say. Otherwise, the fights were anything but creative. The end-boss was recycled from a 5-man for christ's sake.

Yet many other fights in earlier and later content are just as recycled.
Sindragosa/Sapphiron.
Gunship can be compared to Leviathan, even the Lich King fight with the running out to the edge and back in again could be compared to the Loken fight in Halls of Lightning.
The entire mechanism of not standing in the bad stuff is nothing new either.
If you intend to bring up that arguement then ICC content is just as guilty of that, if not more so.

Some fight mechanisms are there because they just work.
If you want something new and original then suggest those ideas on the blizzard forums instead of complaining.

[Zizzagee]

Because they scraped the idea of Azjol-Nerub being a raid and made it an instance.
so they needed something to fill in a patch and was probally thought of in 5 minutes
Thus the "raid" was terrible

and some people like to fight trash

well... before most of it was AOE AOE AOE AOE -drink break- AOE AOE ect.

[Scather]

Personally, I liked it. Granted no trash made it slightly boring, I think it was a pretty decent raid. Fights like Twins and Faction Champs were really fun, and its fast, which makes it more accessible for people with time constraints on raiding.

Ulduar was better imo, but this wasnt bad.

[Elanale]

As a person who always hated trash ever since Molten Core- Molten Core RUINED trash for me- I rather liked ToC. And hard modes sounded cool, but since I was busy rerolling 'lock during the ToC era I shall never see ToGC.

[Roqq]

I've never been a trash hater so that made this place lose any "epicness". Giated raids alsobore me. The fact this place was a 5 man also made his a dull as dish water raid from a visuals pov. Mind you, the place was bland as he'll anyway. When you concider we just had the awesome-saurce that was Ulduar.... Well. Also, from an rp view, this placenwas just a training found for icc - what? No, not very fun all in all.

Thinking about it now, Ulduar should have been our T9 content, more on par with ICC. Although that would have made early raiding on wrath seem really dull.

[Azyoulike]

ToC was the ultimate bribery instance. It was clearly sub-par in design terms so blizz ended up throwing candy at players in the hope that we'd ignore it.

• Gear candy - it was nuts that ToC-10 gear rivalled Uld-25-heroic when it was so damned easy
• Trash candy - no trash, nobody likes trash right? maybe if we give no trash they'll like our instance
• More gear candy - nobody likes random loot right - lets just drop 1 tier token type!
• Yet more gear candy - lets make some horribly OP trinkets that ( in many cases ) will be BiS for the entire expansion!

After all that we still ended up hating the place and blizz learnt that their are limits to the effect bribery has on players.

[Gaexion Ramza Beoulve]

Faction Champs...

Because CC is dead and no one understands they need to focus on control more than they do epic deeps.

And the yes the repetitiveness.

[k1dsmoke]

Gating is a terrible, awful system. It's an artificial limiter put in to keep the best guilds from plowing through easy content. Gating in ToC and ICC cause you to be burnt out on the majority of the instance before it really even opens up to you. Heroic Raiders are forced to endure often times extremely lame regular modes for months on end waiting for their heroic version to open up.

The old system of actually having to kill a boss for tier loot was changed to a grindy badge system which forced players to do all 4 versions of ToC and 2 version of ICC to keep up with the pace of the game. Rather than simply rewarding skill with gear players were rewarded and forced to grind badges to get their gear. I don't mind badges being used to fill holes in gear, but if are legitimately raiding and downing the major bosses that drop tier related gear you should be able to purely gear up from that without having to grind X amount of badges to get a piece of gear. Badges should be used from the current tier of raiding to fill RNG loot holes not provide you with the majority of your gear.

ToC was 5 reused models. It felt like the scaled up 5 man that it was and not a true raid. I will give Blizzard credit though for Heroic Anub'arak. Still one of the best fights in the game. Poor healers are exposed pretty quickly in P3.

I still believe the Ulduar method of loot and heroic fights is the way to go. There shouldn't be a heroic version of a fight for every single boss. Does Valithria, Festergut, Rotface, or Gunship need heroic versions? Blizzard could have easily made them as difficult to their heroic version by default. Gear also scales too wildly under the ToC, ICC method. by the end of Ulduar you had your Tier gear, and a mix of heroic versions of certain slots of gear. Maybe you even had a really good wep from a 10m heroic encounter because you weren't getting lucky on the 25 man weps. Heroic modes should only exist if the heroic version actually adds something substantial to the fight. Sarth3D, Iron Council, Firefighter, XT, Vezax, Yogg all added something significant to fights that altered the way you played the fight normally and greatly increased the challenge other than straight buffing stm or dmg done. Heroic Anub, Lady Deathwhisper, Professor Putricide, Sindragosa, and obviously LK also add significant changes to the fight that actually change your experience. The rest of the fights just have the numbers slightly tweaked or they play out in a way that feels like how the fight should have been like Marrowgar. I mean take Bonestorm on reg vs heroic. On reg I can just sit in Bonestorm and continue to DPS all day long (plate dps here), but on heroic you are lucky to get one attack in before you need to pull out.

[Deluziion]

http://www.wowhead.com/npc=35575
http://www.wowhead.com/npc=35576

Even Blizz knew...

lol awesome didn't know about that

[Deleted]

One thing I will never understand is why people hated it that this place has no trash. Whenever there's trash people avoid it as much as possible. People who pull unneccesary trash groups get yelled at. People want to go through a dungeon as fast as possible, avoid as much trash as they can, and get to the bosses as quick as possible. Yet people got butthurt over the fact that this raid had no trash.

[kerwyn]

One thing I will never understand is why people hated it that this place has no trash. Whenever there's trash people avoid it as much as possible. People who pull unneccesary trash groups get yelled at. People want to go through a dungeon as fast as possible, avoid as much trash as they can, and get to the bosses as quick as possible. Yet people got butthurt over the fact that this raid had no trash.

I don't hate trash as a means of breaking up dungeon pacing.


The problems with ToC have been mentioned, running it 4 times a week, the boring ass layout. Terrible looking loot (For the most part, some of the weapons were cool). It just screamed lazy design.

ICC has been pretty awesome to make up for it however.

[Amnezia]

cuz its a boring raid and its farmable in 10mins

thats basically it

[SPC7R0]

ToC destroyed WotlK

[ComputerNerd]

I don't hate trash as a means of breaking up dungeon pacing.


The problems with ToC have been mentioned, running it 4 times a week, the boring ass layout. Terrible looking loot (For the most part, some of the weapons were cool). It just screamed lazy design.

ICC has been pretty awesome to make up for it however.

Yet the running a raid four times a week is exactly what blizzard are doing something about with the shared lockouts.
That is no different to any raid prior to that, nor to ICC for those with the opportunity to do so.
The design may be been simple, but it fitted the idea, and if you feel how a dungeon/raid looks is more important than the encounters themselves then you really need to take a look at why you are playing.
Trash is a hated mechanism by those who have to contend with it day in day out, and in any dungeon or pugged raid there is the deliberate attempt to avoid as much of it as possible.
Yet those who do the most complaining about the lack of it I am sure are just the same, pushing for only the mandatory bosses in their random heroic, flaming anyone who wants an optional boss, or who needs the reputation.

[schippie]

The reason why i hated it was that after you cleared the place it took you atleast 5 weaks (1 boss a weak terrible) after the release of the patch.
Then you could do the thing in 2-2,5 hours max. And there was nothing fun about the place cause you were forsed to do first like 3-4 weaks of clearing it ( meanwhile finding raids to fill up the gaps in a guild that raids 4 -5 nights a weak) to gear up members and after that you could start doing / trying some h-modes. When you cleared that you could also start doing this one in 2-2,5 hours meaning raidng 1 night a weak from 20:00-24:00 you would have cleared normal and heroic.
And besides the place got old so fast 4 encounters in the same room and 1 in a different room.

Dont get me wrong it fitted with the whole intergrating lore more in the game what WOTLK did more then great. But they could have atleast tried to give like 10 bosses or let the encounters take place in different places where you were teleported to for example.

[kittycuddler]

Yet the running a raid four times a week is exactly what blizzard are doing something about with the shared lockouts.
That is no different to any raid prior to that, nor to ICC for those with the opportunity to do so.
The design may be been simple, but it fitted the idea, and if you feel how a dungeon/raid looks is more important than the encounters themselves then you really need to take a look at why you are playing.
Trash is a hated mechanism by those who have to contend with it day in day out, and in any dungeon or pugged raid there is the deliberate attempt to avoid as much of it as possible.
Yet those who do the most complaining about the lack of it I am sure are just the same, pushing for only the mandatory bosses in their random heroic, flaming anyone who wants an optional boss, or who needs the reputation.

Part of the encounter is the place it takes place in, and being in the same room the entire time kinda kills any sense of variety. I didn't even do ten man very much because I hated the place too much. FChamps made me want to kill myself, which I basically did every week just so I could get a drink instead of delaying the inevitable (lolwarlocks on that fight hardmode). Hardmode Anub was fun... that was the only fun thing about the instance. Limited attempts were a fucking stupid way to dole out loot that would be BIS until the very end of the next instance. Oops pally healer dc'd, time to wipe and wait till next week to see if you can get a cloak.

All that being said, to look on the bright side, if TOC wouldn't have happened they wouldn't be further along in their design principles and done with some of the retarded ideas they had for that place. (even though some of the "fixes" in cata are hated by a lot of people, myself included)

[kerwyn]

Yet the running a raid four times a week is exactly what blizzard are doing something about with the shared lockouts.
That is no different to any raid prior to that, nor to ICC for those with the opportunity to do so.
The design may be been simple, but it fitted the idea, and if you feel how a dungeon/raid looks is more important than the encounters themselves then you really need to take a look at why you are playing.
Trash is a hated mechanism by those who have to contend with it day in day out, and in any dungeon or pugged raid there is the deliberate attempt to avoid as much of it as possible.
Yet those who do the most complaining about the lack of it I am sure are just the same, pushing for only the mandatory bosses in their random heroic, flaming anyone who wants an optional boss, or who needs the reputation.

ICC is not 4 lockouts, it's 2. I rarely use my 10man lockout (because I don't have to anymore).

The design was lazy, the idea was lazy. The encounters were decent. And goddamnit I don't mind trash. Gives me something to faceroll through while BSing with my guild between bosses.

[Nuronv]

As has been repeated a lot at this point:
Uninspired visually
2 Rooms
No Trash
Overly repetitive

The actual encounters themselves are ok, its just all extremely grindy

[Paladin885]

The design was lazy, the idea was lazy. The encounters were decent. And goddamnit I don't mind trash. Gives me something to faceroll through while BSing with my guild between bosses.

the whole story idea was great but the whole concept of using it as a tier 9 dungeon was awful, i agree. After so much trash in TBC and then the long walks and boring pulls in naxx and ulduar(uld had some goodies with paying half attention too) as a healer, ToC was a sign of relief... for about 4 weeks.

[Tragopan]

As a person whom hates raiding it's nice because it is kind of a "go in and get your stuff" thing. Hate dealing with Trash. I've tried ICC and didn't like it, just going to stick with T9 until Cataclysm.