[Blue] Epics will be epic again in Cataclysm!

[Brittany]

You're not only exaggerating you're totally and completely WRONG. Karazahn was as easy as Naxx was in WOTLK. End of discussion nothing else to say about that.


Really? Is that why around a 3rd or more of all realms do not have a guild that has cleared Ulduar hardmodes? Because they're so damn easy?

How about guilds that are doing tribute runs in TOGC? Oh not many doing that at all and in fact most realms still have problems pugging normal toc.

My only point is you're exaggerating how supposedly easy the game is now. It's only easy for people to jump in with good enough gear to merely start raiding end game content because they can obtain gear equivalent to the previous tier via badges and some better items from icc from crafters or because they're boe.

Are those players going to be downing H 25 LK anytime soon? Hell no and I'd bet hard money that you got carried yourself. There's at least some high end guilds making a killing charging people gold for runs through H 25 ICC.

It may be hard to you, but we killed every boss on heroic bar putricide and sindra without a buff, then later did them without a buff. We killed LK heroic with the buff, but he is tuned around it (no guild has beaten him without at least 5%).

Sunwell was infinetly harder than ICC 25 HC. Infinetely. It only seems hard to some now, because they couldn't even get to Sunwell in TBC. The end game is easier than it was at the end of TBC. Again you are talking about things you don't understand.

Not that it matters, but I wasn't carried. I've raided every boss since Vanilla, and for anyone serious about raiding, wrath has been a huge disappointment.

[Frozenbeef]

So they are changing the gear color from all items that drop in heroics to blue instead of purple?

What difference does that make again? No seriously I'd like to know, aside the obvious color difference, I don't see anything different...

Because it would mean over the course of patches when new tiers get released the heroics will still be blue giving no progression for people that dont raid

[Onthar]

Did. Apart from Lk which is horrible overtuned and probably cannot be beaten without at least 5% right now, they all go down pretty easily. Don't talk about things you don't understand.

I know its way overtuned, in both 10-man and 25-man. Other than that, the other heroics are pretty difficult without the buff. Saurfang can go south with a mark getting dbl debuff and just dying, with no hopes of healing him. Festergut's enrage was difficult to beat, and the putricide mechanics( which is more of an annoyance than a test of skill)took a while for some guilds to get.

You are talking about the top 1% of guilds who flew through hard modes.

And FYI, if you disagree with Brittany, you obviously don't understand.

Karazhan was much harder than naxx was. Naxx was easily clearable, with only a couple pinch spots (like patchwerk solely because of gear). However, you were able to clear at least 10 other bosses with absolutely no problem, meaning you're getting 20 epic loot drops before you even hit patchwerk, plus you had heroic instances which dropped the same item lvl loot. Now Karazhan on the other hand, it was difficult mainly because of the gear you had going into it. I raided on my shadow priest, and getting gear from there took forever. It was actually slow progression at first, with attunen really being the only free boss (then chest later on obviously). Truth is, it only became as easy once you were fully geared.

I will agree though that SWP was much more difficult than the ICC hard modes today.

[Mith]

You're not only exaggerating you're totally and completely WRONG. Karazahn was as easy as Naxx was in WOTLK. End of discussion nothing else to say about that.

*puts fingers in ears*EVERYTHING I SAY IS MORE TRUE THAN WHAT YOU SAY EVERYTHING I SAY IS MORE TRUE THAN WHAT YOU SAY*takes fingers out.
Right. if easy means. "Hey, we don't wipe here in tier 6" then I suppose both naxx and kara pass that test...

Really? Is that why a 3rd of all realms do not have a guild that has cleared Ulduar hardmodes? Because they're so damn easy?

How about guilds that are doing tribute runs in TOGC? Oh not many doing that at all and in fact most realms still have problems pugging normal toc.

Question is, why would anyone clear hardmodes?
12ilvl? oh, right.. heroics give better gear than that.
100 achievement points? YES! I need them for .....
flying mount #51? I suppose for some DESPERATE to have every mount in the game, this must be somewhat worthwhile.

My only point is you're exaggerating how supposedly easy the game is now. It's only easy for people to jump in with good enough gear to merely start raiding end game content because they can obtain gear equivalent to the previous tier via badges and some better items from icc from crafters or because they're boe.

The general idea is that the content is easy no matter how you twist and turn it. Some like it, some don't, some wears a tinfoil hat.

[snowblind]

ZG was not the first raid.

Stratholme, Scholomance, Blackrock Spire etc were the first raids.

Emphasis mine. I've said it so many times here, Strat and Scholo have never actually been raids. People went to them in raid groups because they were hideously imbalanced, but they have always been intended to be 5 mans. When the patch came out that imposed strict limits on instances, they were significantly nerfed in order to allow them to be done by a 5 person group.

[Brittany]

I know its way overtuned, in both 10-man and 25-man. Other than that, the other heroics are pretty difficult without the buff. Saurfang can go south with a mark getting dbl debuff and just dying, with no hopes of healing him. Festergut's enrage was difficult to beat, and the putricide mechanics( which is more of an annoyance than a test of skill)took a while for some guilds to get.

You are talking about the top 1% of guilds who flew through hard modes.

In fairness I am talking about the upper end of guilds yes, because that is my experience. TBC and sunwell in particular were much harder.

There was no M'uru in Wrath (don't say Algalon, without the timer he would have gone in one night). Yogg + 0 was probably the hardest but all the different ways to kill him made it less epic than saying you got down KJ. Firefighter was good, but not harder than original Kael. In ICC the only really hard boss is LK but he is tuned around that buff, so you need it to win I think.

LK raiding is easier than TBC, even on hard mode. The reason people say it isn't are that mostly those people never got to raid high end TBC before it was nerfed. Ask anyone if there was anything this expansion harder and more guild killer than M'uru pre-nerfs and they will say no I should imagine. So for anyone who did that, well ICC is easy.

[Mistress Elizabeth]

Because it would mean over the course of patches when new tiers get released the heroics will still be blue giving no progression for people that dont raid

Wasn't Blizzard planning on doing the same exact thing they did this expansion? That once the second tier of Cataclysm hits, valor points (or how raid points are called) would turn into the heroic points, and all the "previous tier" would jump into a vendors that would sell them for heroic points?

[xnickybx]

If you insist on dabbling in absolutes, then I suppose I can live with that title.
There is quite the middle ground between 40man sharing 3 loots and wotlk style.

Like BC? How many people saw sunwell? And if that's not what you mean then give some examples of this middle ground or you are just talking trash.

Also I wouldn't be too proud of the elitist title, it just means douche bag.

[Brittany]

Like BC? How many people saw sunwell? And if that's not what you mean then give some examples of this middle ground or you are just talking trash.

Also I wouldn't be too proud of the elitist title, it just means douche bag.

It's not the fault of the "elitists" that you didn't get to see sunwell. If you were good, or if you were committed or if you tried, you could have too.

This game used to reward skill and it used to reward dedication. Now it says "go work hard like you used to do" to people like us and "here you go xnickybx, here's some T10 shoulders for your 2 hour PUG run!" to people like you.

[Jarbreaker]

I remember when you could strut into a BG with MC or AQ gear and you literally owned the place. I don't think you can bring that feeling back without breaking the game. You might consider ToC and relentless gear normal right now, but back in the day a full set of blues was something to be proud of. Epics took a lot of work or luck.

iirc MC was teh first raid, ZG was patched in at a latter date.

Ha, I remember the jealous whispers I'd get because I got the ST blue mail chest with agility modifier.

[Mistress Elizabeth]

It's not the fault of the "elitists" that you didn't get to see sunwell. If you were good, or if you were committed or if you tried, you could have too.

This game used to reward skill and it used to reward dedication. Now it says "go work hard like you used to do" to people like us and "here you go xnickybx, here's some T10 shoulders for your 2 hour PUG run!" to people like you.

So the problem is that even though you still can work hard for your stuff, you don't like other people getting stuff easy?

[Deleted]

Wasn't Blizzard planning on doing the same exact thing they did this expansion? That once the second tier of Cataclysm hits, valor points (or how raid points are called) would turn into the heroic points, and all the "previous tier" would jump into a vendors that would sell them for heroic points?

Yes.

So far, what the EU Blue post meant is there will be a Cata "T0" blue set gear before raiding, probably from heroic points, and it will help to have that set first. Meanwhile, the valor points will be for the Cata "T1".

When a new tier comes out, "T1" will be purchable with heroic points. Unless they are planning to change the color of each old tier when a new comes out, this is nothing more than the same old system.

[Mith]

Like BC? How many people saw sunwell? And if that's not what you mean then give some examples of this middle ground or you are just talking trash.

Also I wouldn't be too proud of the elitist title, it just means douche bag.

Middle ground would be anywhere between giving 0 epics, to giving epics on every occasion. I didn't necesseraly mean tbc.
I know what the title means. But I also don't really care about what random strangers call me on the interbutts. Particularly as he(you?) use it as substitute for an argument. The whole you are a bad man, thus your arguments are invalid kind of deal.

[Deleted]

This game used to reward skill and it used to reward dedication. Now it says "go work hard like you used to do" to people like us and "here you go xnickybx, here's some T10 shoulders for your 2 hour PUG run!" to people like you.

Like that didn't happened before WotLK. At least now people don't have to pay abusive sums of gold to get in loot runs.

[Onthar]

It's not the fault of the "elitists" that you didn't get to see sunwell. If you were good, or if you were committed or if you tried, you could have too.

This game used to reward skill and it used to reward dedication. Now it says "go work hard like you used to do" to people like us and "here you go xnickybx, here's some T10 shoulders for your 2 hour PUG run!" to people like you.

One of the problems with BC brittany was people coming in late. If you fell behind in raid progression, you kindof got screwed(as an individual). There were many guilds still struggling on Kael when SWP, who never even got kael down before the massive health nerf. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe SWP was the first spot in TBC they added high item lvl badge epics. Even then, they required 10 times the ammount of effort to get as they do today. But still, raids were stuck on Kael.

The real question is this: Should blizzard make older raiding tiers obsolete, or keep them intact by requiring all raiders to go through them (not as in atunement, but as in the only place to get gear)?

[Mistress Elizabeth]

Like that didn't happened before WotLK. At least now people don't have to pay abusive sums of gold to get in loot runs.

Or be friends with already geared players! Or girl/boyfriend with the raid leader.

God I remember a post once in the forums about a mage in full sunwell gear that only knew how to spam frostbolt and had all her gear because the raid leader was her boyfriend.....

[Brittany]

So the problem is that even though you still can work hard for your stuff, you don't like other people getting stuff easy?

Not that so much. It's more of "why do we bother putting ourselves through wiping on this when your just going to nerf it in a couple of days and anyone can do it" or "why do we bother doing this when your going to buff everyone in a couple of days and anyone can do it".

I've never really cared about what other people have. Most top end raiders just like a challenge. Like those people that were wiping on Hc LK25 without the buff when it's pretty likely it's unbeatable without it. Or Hodir, who was unbeatable without glitches etc. We're fighting unbeatable bosses, and the next week a PUG is killing it.

There must be something in between surely. And yes, if our challenge is harder, our reward should be better no? Why do others get the same reward for waiting 2 weeks for nerfs, it doesn't make sense. What motivation is there for us to not take 2 weeks off and just wait for the easymode?

[Clockwork Pinkie]

Inst that what is already happening, blue gear in heroics and epics in raids, unless they remove the badge system completely, nothing will be changed imo, and it really doesnt need to be changed at all, just leave it the way it is.

[sicness]

So the problem is that even though you still can work hard for your stuff, you don't like other people getting stuff easy?

This is the #1 issue that I have with people who dislike the current raiding system. Why do you care so much what other people get? You guys really just need to play the game for yourselves and you'll enjoy it a lot more and once you can see past the bias you have toward other people obtaining the same gear you do you'll see how much better this system is than it was in BC. There's really just no comparison at all.

[snowblind]

Unless they are planning to change the color of each old tier when a new comes out, this is nothing more than the same old system.

This.

It's nothing more than a pandering. The system of being able to get epics without a raid has been in place since, oh... Vanilla. It was refined in TBC with the emblem system, and refined further in WotLK. Cataclysm is refining it again but changing the currency.

Unless they never put any epic gear on vendors, that sell items you can buy with currency from heroics, you will be able to get at least some raid-quality epic gear without ever going into a raid.

This is a calculated decision on Blizzard's part, and will not be changing. You will not be seeing a TBC, or even Vanilla, gear progression ever again.