Unholy DPS in Cata

[Sturyko]

Right so I've been pouring over the talents all day (as I'm sure loads of folk have :P) and have hit a bit of a block in the Unholy side of things.

This is the one i'm thinking of just now;
wowtal.com/#k=fccrqjGB2-QaJT.9gq.deathknight

This focuses on improving death coil, over Gargoyle/ Ghoul damage. With runic empowerment, and Sudden Doom's scalability with haste (a big modifier in unholy damage along with Icy Talons), I'm thinking it might work quite well. I think having the +20% Strength every minute will out DPS the gargoyle every 3 as well. Especially since all base stats are about to skyrocket and the 20% you get in cata will be massive in comparison to what we get now (but then, the mobs will be tougher as well).

Looking for some input :3 What would you guys go for? Ghoul damage & Gargoyle every 3 minutes, or 20% Strength every 1 minute with extra damage and White procs for Death Coil?

IE:
Gargoyle/ ghoul/ Wandering plague
vs
Unholy Blight/ Sudden Doom/ Morbidity/ Pillar of Frost

EDIT:
From my understanding of the new Rune system, we won't need to worry about the fact DC needs to be used (costing a GCD) instead of the free DC you'd get in Sudden Doom just now. Generally maximising White damage/ Procs via haste looks as though it's the way to go while Runes are on CD

EDIT 2:
Now i think about it, the usage could be made easier the same way /rune strike is when tanking, having /cast Death Coil on every macro, so you wouldn't even need to think about it much

[LocutuS]

gargoyle is 10 times better than 20% str, currently, if a frost dk doesnt use Unbreakable armor at the perfect time, he loses dps, while the gargoyle is always a gain

[Radux]

Why not just have both?

http://www.wowtal.com/#k=fxyNx6BlrWD-Ph.9gq.deathknight
It looks just about right to me.

I'm really unconvinced about Sudden Doom. Hurray we get a 15% on auto attack for a free DC? For the build I linked, it's either Sudden Doom or Pillar of Frost. Hmm... 20% Str or a free DC.
Seems like a no brainer to me, considering the fact that I can't think of anything a UH DK will be using a Frost Rune on aside from IT.

[Sturyko]

wowtal.com/#k=fxyNx6BlrWD-Ph.9gq.deathknight

Well I dunno. The fact that you've taken a hit in Epidemic there, and Dirge is a bit tough. I find that having that extra RP is a bit of a help in the rotation. Wouldn't it be better not having Endless winter now it's been changed? With the fact that we'd be using unholy presence wouldn't it be good to have the extra haste?

[Wingwraith]

Theory crafting w/o numbers sounds pretty pointless to me...
It's way too early to make talent point value comparisons.

[Sturyko]

I don't think it's too early at all. The talents we're talking about aren't that much different to what we have now. They've just been shuffled about. The theory employed is the same as what is being talked about now. I think the only thing which could potentially sway it to an unknown factor is whether or not the glyphs will change dramatically.

[Radux]

Well I dunno. The fact that you've taken a hit in Epidemic there, and Dirge is a bit tough. I find that having that extra RP is a bit of a help in the rotation. Wouldn't it be better not having Endless winter now it's been changed? With the fact that we'd be using unholy presence wouldn't it be good to have the extra haste?

A.) I think you're forgetting that diseases are 30 seconds at base. 5 points in Epidemic means they're 45 seconds. Don't see the need to really even take the talent.

B.) Dirge is a potential sacrifice, I agree. But again, as it's been pointed out, it's tough to really judge without extensive testing.

C.) Endless Winter is still a good talent. No RP cost on Mind Freeze? Ok. And Honestly, tell me one reason why an additional 30 RP is any better?

D.) With the wording of Improved Unholy Presence, I'm not convinced that it will take our haste from 10% to 15%, or, like Blizzard tends to do (5% of the 10%) making the 10% into 10.5%.

[Sturyko]

A.) I think you're forgetting that diseases are 30 seconds at base. 5 points in Epidemic means they're 45 seconds. Don't see the need to really even take the talent.

Totally forgot about this /facepalm.

I guess endless winter is a good situational piece too.

[Zulrantis]

Right now it is not completely pointless to make these trees to be ready for cata, however you cant actually see what numbers they will do until lvl 85 in endgame content, there are too many specs to really think about getting, some that involve morbidity, or reaping, or w. plague, unholy blight, sudden doom, or even impurity(god forbid). The best one that i could come up with involved no reaping or w. plague, getting sudden doom because its on auto attacks this time and not on heart strikes or blood strikes how it was when it was back in blood, giving it a better chance to proc with speed effects, also got dirge because simply that means death coils will be generated faster. I also ended up getting pillar of frost and one point in brittle bones in frost.

wowtal.com/#k=fZCvJt7JS-W3Q-.9gq.deathknight

again this is just one of many already made, cant really test it till....how many damn months are left.

[Wingwraith]

I don't think it's too early at all. The talents we're talking about aren't that much different to what we have now. They've just been shuffled about. The theory employed is the same as what is being talked about now. I think the only thing which could potentially sway it to an unknown factor is whether or not the glyphs will change dramatically.

The part you're forgetting is that they are restructuring our rune usage to slow down our rotations. When that happens, they will have to increase all of our strike damage to compensate for less strikes overall. All our current knowledge is based on our current strike base damage and multipliers. All of that is changing. All of it.

[Sturyko]

to Zulrantis

Totally spot on. After rethinking the Epidemic points, I came up with pretty much the same spec, only with Frost points focused on Runic Empowerment. Will be good to see how this works out.

to Wingwraith
Ach lighten up. I know that we've a tonne of different variables which are going to change all this. The Glyphs, the way mobs take damage (although I've not heard of any changes apart from possibly needing more hit as you progress) and the points to made above. Fact is, there's nothing to lose with speculation and everything to gain, all be it, a talk with no practical info.

Personally, I'm glad I got my head around a tree to start off in