New Mage Talents??

[dieseledge]

A lot of you are very good points.

And yes, I realize this is still beta. I'm not ready to kill myself or amputate my limbs, I'm just simply stating that if these talents go live, Frost Mages will be ruined for PvP.

Also, to you people who think that a Mage doesn't need Improved Counter-Spell for PvP... I understand you're stoked about these Mage nerfs so you and your little Paladins and Priests can just out-heal our damage in PvP even more, but please understand: As an experienced Mage in competitive PvP / Arena (That stands for Player Versus Player) for you people on here, because after reading your guys' thread responses, I can tell that some of you have never ever PvP'd before. Let alone on a Mage.

Mages *NEED* Imp. Counter-Spell for PvP. Yes, it's true that we can still lock someone out of a school of magic for 8 seconds. But what about the fake casts? Once again, for those of you who don't PvP at ALL, that's when someone in high-end arena will anticipate your little Counter-Spell and have you waste it on them completely.

Also, any of you Mage-haters hear about a Warlock? You guys DO realize they have a pet called a Fel Hunter that can spell lock also, right? And it's not even the Warlock's ability.... It's their stupid pet that can do that.

I'm really sorry I had to come back on here and argue with you guys, I had no idea that Paladins and Priests went on to the Mage forums and trolled around.

For those of you who agree with me, and are disappointed in this mega Frost-Mage nerf, let us hope that this beta build will correct itself very soon. I can't believe this.


Thanks everyone.

Here's an idea. Take a look at... IDK EVERY SINGLE CLASS FORUM, and you'll find every spec of every class concerned about something being gone or missing or no longer attainable. You act like this is limited to mages only.

[Swizzle]

A lot of you are very good points.

And yes, I realize this is still beta. I'm not ready to kill myself or amputate my limbs, I'm just simply stating that if these talents go live, Frost Mages will be ruined for PvP.

Also, to you people who think that a Mage doesn't need Improved Counter-Spell for PvP... I understand you're stoked about these Mage nerfs so you and your little Paladins and Priests can just out-heal our damage in PvP even more, but please understand: As an experienced Mage in competitive PvP / Arena (That stands for Player Versus Player) for you people on here, because after reading your guys' thread responses, I can tell that some of you have never ever PvP'd before. Let alone on a Mage.

Mages *NEED* Imp. Counter-Spell for PvP. Yes, it's true that we can still lock someone out of a school of magic for 8 seconds. But what about the fake casts? Once again, for those of you who don't PvP at ALL, that's when someone in high-end arena will anticipate your little Counter-Spell and have you waste it on them completely.

Also, any of you Mage-haters hear about a Warlock? You guys DO realize they have a pet called a Fel Hunter that can spell lock also, right? And it's not even the Warlock's ability.... It's their stupid pet that can do that.

I'm really sorry I had to come back on here and argue with you guys, I had no idea that Paladins and Priests went on to the Mage forums and trolled around.

For those of you who agree with me, and are disappointed in this mega Frost-Mage nerf, let us hope that this beta build will correct itself very soon. I can't believe this.


Thanks everyone.

if you fall for a fake cast, then the opponent is better than you and Imp. CS or no, you deserve to NOT win that fight. also, as it stands on live, healers have talents to reduce the duration of your silence to near minute levels anyway, so the change is unnoticeable to mages worth their salt.

also, saying IMA PEEVEEPEE MASTAH RAWR PRROOOFF NO NEEDED BAM is quite possibly the most moronic thing i've heard since my cousin tried to disprove the Collatz conjecture.

[freernnur5]

I know this is still Beta and things are going to change a lot. This is not a complaint, just an observation.

One thing that I thought they were going to do is remove that 5 points drops you down deeper in a tree. However since most things are 2/3 points it seems like a whole tree is being filled out just to get to the bottom, which makes you take points that you normally would not (if you are making an Arcane raiding spec, there are some pvp talents you need to take to reach the bottom of the tree...even better example of this, look at feral druids). I figure this will change or they will add more options.

[Swizzle]

While this is a first pass on all of the talent trees, death knight, druid, paladin, warlock, Arcane mage, and Assassination rogue trees are not as far along as other specializations.

taadaa!!!

[dieseledge]

I know this is still Beta and things are going to change a lot. This is not a complaint, just an observation.

One thing that I thought they were going to do is remove that 5 points drops you down deeper in a tree. However since most things are 2/3 points it seems like a whole tree is being filled out just to get to the bottom, which makes you take points that you normally would not (if you are making an Arcane raiding spec, there are some pvp talents you need to take to reach the bottom of the tree...even better example of this, look at feral druids). I figure this will change or they will add more options.

To be perfectly honest, that makes speccing more fun for Arcane. Previously, you could only pick the talents that some geek with a calculator ordained as the highest possible dps increase. Being able to choose between utility talents that are hard to place a definite value upon is a good thing. Let's be honest here. Taking any utility talents at this time, means you are dropping dps talents. The current setup to me gives you more choices. If you could choose 31 strictly dps talent points, you know damn well those points will be seen as mandatory.

[Hoosiermama]

To be perfectly honest, that makes speccing more fun for Arcane. Previously, you could only pick the talents that some geek with a calculator ordained as the highest possible dps increase. Being able to choose between utility talents that are hard to place a definite value upon is a good thing. Let's be honest here. Taking any utility talents at this time, means you are dropping dps talents. The current setup to me gives you more choices. If you could choose 31 strictly dps talent points, you know damn well those points will be seen as mandatory.

Yes you have more choices, but the choices suck. I know it's beta and things change (it seems you have to say that if you say anything negative at all about the talent trees). The trees we have now are far more interesting and the choices actually matter.

---------- Post added 2010-07-14 at 04:44 PM ----------

And what do people want in the arcane tree that they can't currently get? The only things outside of a the normal raiding build are pushback resistance, buff to mage armor, damage reduction, more armor, and more spirit. IA would be nice to have, but that's about it.

[dieseledge]

Yes you have more choices, but the choices suck. I know it's beta and things change (it seems you have to say that if you say anything negative at all about the talent trees). The trees we have now are far more interesting and the choices actually matter.

---------- Post added 2010-07-14 at 04:44 PM ----------

And what do people want in the arcane tree that they can't currently get? The only things outside of a the normal raiding build are pushback resistance, buff to mage armor, damage reduction, more armor, and more spirit. IA would be nice to have, but that's about it.

How does the new blink talent and Instant invis suck exactly? Granted they are not dps increases, they are very good utility talents. What about improved polymorph that now stuns the target for 3 seconds? Those are pretty interesting talents IMO. More interesting than Increases your crit damage which can be built into the class. My point is there are no choices on live which you just confirmed with your own post. Raiders get everything they want for dps and only dps. To go outside of it is to gimp their spec. How true that is is up to the player and their guild.

[Hoosiermama]

How does the new blink talent and Instant invis suck exactly? Granted they are not dps increases, they are very good utility talents. What about improved polymorph that now stuns the target for 3 seconds? Those are pretty interesting talents IMO. More interesting than Increases your crit damage which can be built into the class. My point is there are no choices on live which you just confirmed with your own post. Raiders get everything they want for dps and only dps. To go outside of it is to gimp their spec. How true that is is up to the player and their guild.

I guess we just differ on what we find interesting. I like to do a lot of damage. You like to stun things and run around really fast. None of the other talents we have currently are necessary or even desirable in today's raid setting. I have slow in my arcane spec for saurfang, that's about it. A raid leader isn't going to ask you to talent into some damage reduction. Instant invis would be nice on Deathwhisper. I'd be happier with the talent trees if the choices were more interesting and may even produce a dps increase. IA and frost warding are pretty good examples of the "utility" talents that I'd like to see. Something that takes thought, changes your rotation, and can produce a dps increase if done correctly.

[Swizzle]

I guess we just differ on what we find interesting. I like to do a lot of damage. You like to stun things and run around really fast. None of the other talents we have currently are necessary or even desirable in today's raid setting. I have slow in my arcane spec for saurfang, that's about it. A raid leader isn't going to ask you to talent into some damage reduction. Instant invis would be nice on Deathwhisper. I'd be happier with the talent trees if the choices were more interesting and may even produce a dps increase. IA and frost warding are pretty good examples of the "utility" talents that I'd like to see. Something that takes thought, changes your rotation, and can produce a dps increase if done correctly.

While this is a first pass on all of the talent trees, death knight, druid, paladin, warlock, Arcane mage, and Assassination rogue trees are not as far along as other specializations.

taadaa!!! christ i hate people who don't read things gouuud.

[dieseledge]

I think much of the play testing is going to be rebalancing damage around not having those talents. One thing I do notice about arcane is you're going to be speccing into fire for interruption protection unless Blizzard brings it back to the arcane tree. That's really the only big complaint I have. I would miss Imp CS as frost, but there's always some give and take.

I get the wanting to do more damage but fact is, people that choose utility over damage aren't exactly favored by many guilds. As a raider, I have usually chosen DPS over utility, but it would be nice to have that choice without persecution.

[Umbrokill]

So much QQ and so little intellect

[Gyrllsbear]

"If these talents goe live nearly all mages will quit or reroll." This was the exact sort of thing that was said during the beta of TBC and WotLK. I'm just gonna throw that out there.

[Deleted]

Oh, the shock! Not every single talent I can take is a sheer dps increase in raiding environment!
Too bad that's by design in Cataclysm and it's actually good, so that you can have a good raiding spec and STILL take different talents which are good in different situations... -.-

[deadmetal]

Screw frost pvp and your lil imp counterspell, you can learn to pvp without it. But not having icy veins for arcane pve spec is just destroying the spec imo. When they said they were going to make attractable talents just out of reach so that you wish you chose the other spec, I didn't think they were going to take it this far. = (

[heerobya]

My mage is only at level 20 but I read this talents and get excited-

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?mage...G,waX3-H,12479

-10% clearcasting - no mana cost of next spell
-Spell crits refund 30% of base mana cost
-Increase crit chance of frostfire bolt and ice lance by 4%
-reduce mana cost of all spell by 10%
-15% chance to freeze target
-multiplies critical chance of all spells against frozen targets by 3 (insane)
-reduce cooldown of nova, cone, ice block, icy veins by 20%
-increase crit chance of all spells by 3%
-reduce cast time of frostbolt by .5 seconds
-icy veins
-15% chance to make ice lance act as if target frozen
-frostbolt = 3% mana, always constant always on regen
-cold snap
-frostbolt crits chill 2 additional targets
-15% chance for free fireball/frostfire bold instant cast
-ice barrier
-cooldown reductions on cold snap, ice barrier, summon water ele
-flame orb to frost orb and increased frostfire damage 30%
-deep freeze

There's a lot of boom there. Good boom. Happy boom.

Combine that with more crit, more damage, and even more damage stacking from Masteries... sexy.

[gathanasiou]

I think i have to say my opinion on the new talent trees of the mages..

One thing we must all realise is that the game is in a veeery early beta stage and things are really not clear, yet. I know others have said the same and i dont want to say the same things again.

Also it is a whole god damn new expansion pack with hell a lot of changes to every single part of the game raning from 1-85! How are you sure that things are going to be the same as today? I mean that the present talents are going to be in the same use in Cata too... How do u know that there aren't gonna be any changes in the way we dps at some encounters? Maybe some of the talents that are about to be implemented are boosting it.

w/e just patience and imagination really lowers the period till the launch :P

[gathanasiou]

Guys get serious.. How do u know what are we going to face in Cata and how will we make use of the new talents?

Srsly i don't think that Blizz is implementing random talents.. they can be used for a reason.

Just have patience and imagination for the rest 4 months :P

[rabbimojo]

I think much of the play testing is going to be rebalancing damage around not having those talents. One thing I do notice about arcane is you're going to be speccing into fire for interruption protection unless Blizzard brings it back to the arcane tree. That's really the only big complaint I have. I would miss Imp CS as frost, but there's always some give and take.

I get the wanting to do more damage but fact is, people that choose utility over damage aren't exactly favored by many guilds. As a raider, I have usually chosen DPS over utility, but it would be nice to have that choice without persecution.

The entire point of this change to talents is to change that question into choosing utility over /utility/. IE, you choose between utility talents. Since the community more or less agrees that you always take damage over utility, that removes the entire point of having utility (except as a trap for players) and causes unnecessary strife. Now, you get some damage styling from your spec, and the rest of it comes from gear.

Unfortunately, this isn't something a lot of people seem to "get" yet (in spite of the fact that it's been explicitly stated many, many, many times by blizz). Example:

Fine, let's talk about fire. Taking all the dps talents, you still won't get to Living Bomb. The choices I have left when looking at them are: lower CD on fire blast, a chance to stun, a speed increase for when you get hit, molten armor affecting spells and ranged attacks, a knockback, and a buff to flamestrike.

ooooo, really interesting.

See:

...this is a first pass...

[rabbimojo]

How is a buff to flamestrike not a dps increase?

Shhh! Don't you know the only important part of the game is hurting targets with a skull icon?

Edit: Oi, these time-travel forums are bizarre.

[Hoosiermama]

Yes all of those things are in fact like a hundred billion trillblabhalbhdurparupdalllion times more interesting than talents that "increase the critical strike/damage of (spell name) by 2%/4%/8%".

Those talents were never a choice anyways they were mandatory, and merely having the illusion of making a choice is in reality no choice at all.

So in closing: You're wrong. Get over it.

I guess I just have a different view on it than everyone else and no one is going to change their mind. I like to get use out of my talents in boss fights, but whatever.

Since this isn't going anywhere, let's actually discuss the new talents. Hot Streak has changed a lot.

Your fire spells no longer trigger Arcane Missiles. Instead, anytime you score 3 critical strikes with fire spells within 6 seconds of each other, you have a 100% chance the next Pyroblast spell cast within 10 sec will be instant cast.

I'd like to know what Blizz thinks our crit % should be at in cata. They said they wanted Hot Streak to be more of a bonus than a penalty when it doesn't proc. Seems like the new Hot Streak would be proccing more often that the current one since it doesn't require them in a row and can proc from Living Bomb tick crits.