We Dont Need Healing Rain

[Teriz]

riptide increases the healing of CH, yes. but that was not my point, the increase is good, and you can use it very effectively.
my point is, that you only use riptide BECAUSE it proccs Tidal Waves, your relictotem and your 2pc t10 bonus.
they had to link that spell to 5 talentpoints and 3 items, so that you use it. thats juste a bad spell design, isnt it?
i use the spell only because of its synergies, not because the heal is strong or i want the very low hot. paladins get a better riptide for free (holy shock will be baseline).
i know the comparison is not very good, but since paladins used to be the shaman equivalent, i think you get the point.

Oh jeez....

You use Riptide because its an instant heal that has the ability to procc several things, not just tidal waves. Also while the 20% spell haste bonus from the t10 set made Riptide better, the spell wasn't useless to begin with. I've never seen a RShaman that NEVER used Riptide before they got the t10 set. Also the notion that Riptide being linked to Tidal Waves shows its weakness is just silly. Its the last talent in the Resto tree, of course you're going to get Tidal Waves before Riptide. How is that bad design? You're SUPPOSED to use Tidal Waves in conjunction with Riptide and Chain Heal. There's never going to be a scenario where you don't have TW with Riptide.

As for Holy Shock, I disagree that its better than Riptide. Riptide heals and then goes into a HoT for several seconds after the initial heal. Riptide always proccs Tidal Waves which allows you to either use LHW or HW, and it always increases the healing power of CH. Riptide also has a chance to procc the Earthliving HoT. Holy Shock gives you the heal and that's it, unless it crits. However Riptide's crits have more proccs than HS does. Both spells have the same cooldown. IMO, flexibility is always better than an all out heal.

now thats just not was i was saying, you're trying to turn my arguments around.
tidal waves is very great, it gives shaman healing a rhythm (call it flow), that i really like. i just don't like all the stuff they had to link to it.

My point was (and still is) that there's never a scenario where you don't have Tidal Waves and Riptide, thus your argument that Riptide without Tidal Waves sucks is rather silly because the talents were designed to work together.

this is just so wrong, i'm sorry. i'm not saying my shaman sucks, i like him and play him for a long time. but really, when i raid and see how long the other healing classes can heal (say paladins, druids, discis, holypriests only with very good spiritgear)... i just dont know how you can come up and tell me that shamans have the best manareg. i see my mana dropping constantly below that of others (jeah i know: you must be a bad healer eheheehhe ^^ xd).
on the point of best tank healing: we dont perform too bad. but please, feel free to heal lk10hc with a shaman and tell me the pally doesnt do it better.
earthshield is a joke critting for 10k. the glyph of lhw makes the healing good, but how good can a spell be, thats only there to enable the glyph?

Yes, you're doing something wrong. Shaman in WotLK shouldn't run out of Mana unless they're geared wrong or using the wrong spells. Water Shield, Improved Water Shield, and improved shields should be keeping your mana under control. I've seen Shaman with well over 50% mana while other healers are sitting on the ground drinking.

Earthshield crits for 10k while you're doing nothing. That's why its the best tank heal in the game. Consider that while Paladins are better at Tank healing overall, Shaman can tank heal AND raid heal thanks to Earthshield, Riptide, and all those lovely synergies we were talking about earlier.

---------- Post added 2010-08-18 at 02:22 PM ----------

Haw can you be dead if you are already full health? A spell that overheal for more than 90% of its time is a bad used spell. Yet it's a random low % proc. Making it impossible for us to choose whem to use it. So it's a waste of a proc. I hope it will finally get it's place with our huge health pool in cata

I'm saying that overhealing is never a bad thing. Also how is Earthliving a wasted procc when its free?

Yes, but druids got a lot more spells than what we have. It's our only instant heal, i would like it to be more than just a buff that take a GCD to use. We actually use mostly 3 spells for healing, Riptide, LHW and CH. we rarely use HW because in WotLK, fast heals are better than slow heals.

Imp. HW, Tidal Waves makes HW's cast time the same as LHW. If you're tank healing in a raid, you're going to be using HW in conjunction with Riptide. Druids have more HoTs than Shaman because that's how they're designed. That's common sense.

They had to give us a relic and a tier10 bonus set that use Riptide or we would never bother using it. Riptide is used for the instant lame heal it provide, the HoT portion of it is overhealing often (hope again it will change in cata with huge health pool) It provide tidal wave, so does CH. We use riptide because it's fast, that's what mather in WotLK. And on fights that need really fast heals, like Blood Queen, Riptide is a waste of GCD, i use it when ppl are at more than 50% hp, if they are near death they will die if i have to do riptide+lhw or riptide+HW or even riptide+CH.

Riptide + LHW is for mana, when there is no danger of 1 member dying soon. If we need healing we don't use riptide, we use LHW+LHW
Riptide+CH is for the faster casting we get with 2pcT10 bonus. The 25% bonus healing is almost never used, it's a mega overhealing of the primary target, an average overhealing on 2nd target, a ridiculous amount of healing of 3rd and 4th targets.
Riptide+HW is for watching ppl die. It takes too much time and it cost too much mana.

I've already addressed this in another post so I'm not going to repeat myself. Also Riptide+HW takes the same amount of casting time as Riptide+LHW. I'll ask again; What makes Riptide a terrible spell? Because it gives Shaman flexibility and all sorts of buffs?

[Eleraith]

Personally I kinda like the idea of healing rain.
And yes, I do have a resto shaman. >_>;

[Elixor]

Unique is unique, unique in this matter is quite nice.

[Slavemaker]

Healing rains looks pretty... I like casting pretty spells!

[Kagdar]

Yes riptide can proc several things :

-Initial heal : low initial healing (around 5k hp) Good for sparse damages, not good for saving someone. It's our only instant
(except if you count Nature's swiftness) Don't we deserve a way to save someone more than once every 2 min?
Thank god at least we are getting unleashed weapon with earthliving, just hope it will be more than 5k hp

-HoT : around 1.2k every 3 sec. Again, mostly overhealing currently

-Hearliving : which currently, overheal more than 90% of the time. An overheal doesn't do anything, it's wasted heal. you healed for nothing.
That's why it's a wasted proc, because it procced, and did nothing more than boost your overhealing meter.
The guy is at 100%hp, you add 700hp, he is still at 100%, you wasted 700hp. Currently it's useless

-Tidal wave x2
-LHW : gives you a better chance to crit, giving you mana back. This is great, it's the best part of tidal wave

-HW : lower the cast time, making it almost as fast as LHW (.2sec difference, not a lot) Spamming this combination will make you oom
in no time. Currently on a tank, with the way they kinda die in 3-4 swings, if he his really low on health LHW+LHW will
be better than riptide+HW. If the tank is around 40%hp+, it's probably safe, depends on which boss, and which ability he is
currently doing

- +25% healing on CH if cast on same target : Again, you will overheal for a huge amount on the first target, you will overheal some on 2nd target,
and will get a nice insignificant bonus on 3rd and 4th targets.


So when you cast riptide, you do a small instant heal, you overheal during 15 secondes, you have a chance to overheal even more during 12 secondes. You can after that overheal more on 2 targets and cry for the ridiculous healing your 3rd and 4th targets are getting. Finally , you can get a crit LHW that will gives you mana and a great heal (around 10k) or get a fast HW that wasn't necessary on a raid member, you can heal your tank and hope your initial 5k hp was sufficient for him to not die while he waits for the 18k+ that he will get (while he could have had 2x 9k (maybe 12k if crit) during thhe same amount of time)

[Kenai]

Oh jeez....

You use Riptide because its an instant heal that has the ability to procc several things, not just tidal waves. Also while the 20% spell haste bonus from the t10 set made Riptide better, the spell wasn't useless to begin with. I've never seen a RShaman that NEVER used Riptide before they got the t10 set. Also the notion that Riptide being linked to Tidal Waves shows its weakness is just silly. Its the last talent in the Resto tree, of course you're going to get Tidal Waves before Riptide. How is that bad design? You're SUPPOSED to use Tidal Waves in conjunction with Riptide and Chain Heal. There's never going to be a scenario where you don't have TW with Riptide.

While I agree with some of what you said, I do also agree that Riptide is kinda lackluster for our final talent. It does HoT and it does heal instantly, but neither are powerful enough imo. The HoT right now is very close in power to Earthliving (which is weak for a spell in this position imo, EL heals for about 11-1200 buffed and Riptide for 13-1400). It scales terribly like several Shaman spells, but we use it right now because we have very few instants (and all of the gear that boosts it helps too). It isn't very good in Cata right now with all of those boosts gone and more things I can do while moving. I would like it if Riptide was capable of standing on its own as a spell without needing all that reinforcement.

Yes, you're doing something wrong. Shaman in WotLK shouldn't run out of Mana unless they're geared wrong or using the wrong spells. Water Shield, Improved Water Shield, and improved shields should be keeping your mana under control. I've seen Shaman with well over 50% mana while other healers are sitting on the ground drinking.

While I do agree that mana should generally not be an issue for a geared Shaman anymore, Shaman did have overall the worst mana recovery in WotLK, and was the last of the healers to abandon mp5. Water Shield made up for a lack of Meditation, but while most healers had at least two separate cooldown abilities to replace mana, Shaman had one, and it was on a decently long timer. That being said, Shaman mana recovery is in a very good spot now and is VERY impressive in Cata. I see no problems there.

As for Holy Shock, I disagree that its better than Riptide. Riptide heals and then goes into a HoT for several seconds after the initial heal. Riptide always proccs Tidal Waves which allows you to either use LHW or HW, and it always increases the healing power of CH. Riptide also has a chance to procc the Earthliving HoT. Holy Shock gives you the heal and that's it, unless it crits. However Riptide's crits have more proccs than HS does. Both spells have the same cooldown. IMO, flexibility is always better than an all out heal.

I agree that Riptide is generally better than Holy Shock, but I don't really think it's fair to compare what will be a baseline ability for Paladins to the final ability of the Shaman Restoration tree. Let's compare the final abilities in each healing tree for the classes, rather. I think that's where it starts to look a tad underpowered. Might you agree there? Riptide seems more like a spell deep in the tree rather than the pinnacle of Shaman healing, and to me, similar to Circle of Healing, Penance, Tree of Life or Beacon of Light. All iconic spells for their trees and quite powerful, yet notice how all of those spells either were never the final spell or were moved down and replaced with a new spell that is just as iconic. I would like to see Riptide also changed that way, and replaced with Spirit Link or something similar. I think the devs might have been planning on that based on what I saw in beta, but they look to be scrapping Spirit Link yet again unless things change. Healing Rain is pretty good, but it's another baseline spell and doesn't have much synergy with Restoration Shaman talents right now.

[Hypernetic]

Everyone said the same thing about riptide too. "Omg what a crap 51 pt talent... blah blah blah". Bottom line, RT is awesome. Yeah, part of that was the disappointment over losing spirit link, but whatever.

Anyway, healing rain is awesome. We will be the only class with a powerful, fire and forget, AoE heal.. why wouldn't you want that? It's like death and decay.. that HEALS!

Oh, and it's also usable by all 3 specs. Not a bad bit of utility for an elemental to have on difficult fights, I mean clearly it won't heal as much as a resto shamans, but using one GCD to help the whole raid stay alive? Yes plz!

[Waterisbest]

http://db.mmo-champion.com/s/34151/

When you critically heal with your Regrowth spell you also sprout a bed of healing flora underneath the target, healing all nearby friendly targets within 15 yards who stand on them for [10%/20%/30%] of the amount healed by your Regrowth every sec for 7 sec.

This is a Resto Druid talent. And makes Healing Rain look crap.

Discuss.

[Kenai]

http://db.mmo-champion.com/s/34151/

When you critically heal with your Regrowth spell you also sprout a bed of healing flora underneath the target, healing all nearby friendly targets within 15 yards who stand on them for [10%/20%/30%] of the amount healed by your Regrowth every sec for 7 sec.

This is a Resto Druid talent. And makes Healing Rain look crap.

Discuss.

False.

[Hypernetic]

False.

/agree with Kenai. That just sounds like a druid-ish version of AA tbh, and AA works with 4 of our spells (if you include GHW now).

[Teriz]

While I agree with some of what you said, I do also agree that Riptide is kinda lackluster for our final talent. It does HoT and it does heal instantly, but neither are powerful enough imo. The HoT right now is very close in power to Earthliving (which is weak for a spell in this position imo, EL heals for about 11-1200 buffed and Riptide for 13-1400). It scales terribly like several Shaman spells, but we use it right now because we have very few instants (and all of the gear that boosts it helps too). It isn't very good in Cata right now with all of those boosts gone and more things I can do while moving. I would like it if Riptide was capable of standing on its own as a spell without needing all that reinforcement.

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on this, because its one opinion vs another. You feel that its lackluster because it doesn't heal enough, I feel its a wonderful spell because of its synergy with the resto tree and other Shaman spells. Its definitely flawed (the scaling argument is a good point), but I believe the reason it isn't so powerful is because of the boost it gives to the other healing spells.

As for Cata, its still in beta, and will get revisions throughout its release stage, so I don't think we should really comment about it at this point.

While I do agree that mana should generally not be an issue for a geared Shaman anymore, Shaman did have overall the worst mana recovery in WotLK, and was the last of the healers to abandon mp5. Water Shield made up for a lack of Meditation, but while most healers had at least two separate cooldown abilities to replace mana, Shaman had one, and it was on a decently long timer. That being said, Shaman mana recovery is in a very good spot now and is VERY impressive in Cata. I see no problems there.

Really? I just didn't see that when I was a resto shaman, and when friends of mine were resto shaman. We never had mana issues, and I actually had a few people complain to me that Shaman regen was op. I'm not in the beta, but its good to hear that Shaman mana recovery is solid in Cata.

I agree that Riptide is generally better than Holy Shock, but I don't really think it's fair to compare what will be a baseline ability for Paladins to the final ability of the Shaman Restoration tree. Let's compare the final abilities in each healing tree for the classes, rather. I think that's where it starts to look a tad underpowered. Might you agree there? Riptide seems more like a spell deep in the tree rather than the pinnacle of Shaman healing, and to me, similar to Circle of Healing, Penance, Tree of Life or Beacon of Light. All iconic spells for their trees and quite powerful, yet notice how all of those spells either were never the final spell or were moved down and replaced with a new spell that is just as iconic. I would like to see Riptide also changed that way, and replaced with Spirit Link or something similar. I think the devs might have been planning on that based on what I saw in beta, but they look to be scrapping Spirit Link yet again unless things change. Healing Rain is pretty good, but it's another baseline spell and doesn't have much synergy with Restoration Shaman talents right now.

I never had issue with Riptide being the final spell in the resto tree. It synergized well with other healing spells and talents. Obviously its not as iconic as CoH and BoL, but I always felt that Earth Shield was the iconic Shaman healing spell.

As for the return of Spirit Link, one can only hope.

[Fenixdown]

I'll gladly take Healing Rain over Divine Hymn. Or any of the other not fantastic abilities I get in Cataclysm as a discipline priest. Power Word : Barrier has a 3 minute cooldown. That sucker won't last past Deathwing's toecleave.

Cry more, maybe Blizzard will get fed up of shaman QQ so badly they just take all your great new toys away and give them to far more deserving players.

[sicness]

http://db.mmo-champion.com/s/34151/

When you critically heal with your Regrowth spell you also sprout a bed of healing flora underneath the target, healing all nearby friendly targets within 15 yards who stand on them for [10%/20%/30%] of the amount healed by your Regrowth every sec for 7 sec.

This is a Resto Druid talent. And makes Healing Rain look crap.

Discuss.

Spell that may not be amazing but you have control over > roughly the same spell that you have no control over what so ever due to RNG

[Teriz]

Yes riptide can proc several things :

-Initial heal : low initial healing (around 5k hp) Good for sparse damages, not good for saving someone. It's our only instant
(except if you count Nature's swiftness) Don't we deserve a way to save someone more than once every 2 min?
Thank god at least we are getting unleashed weapon with earthliving, just hope it will be more than 5k hp

-HoT : around 1.2k every 3 sec. Again, mostly overhealing currently

-Hearliving : which currently, overheal more than 90% of the time. An overheal doesn't do anything, it's wasted heal. you healed for nothing.
That's why it's a wasted proc, because it procced, and did nothing more than boost your overhealing meter.
The guy is at 100%hp, you add 700hp, he is still at 100%, you wasted 700hp. Currently it's useless

-Tidal wave x2
-LHW : gives you a better chance to crit, giving you mana back. This is great, it's the best part of tidal wave

-HW : lower the cast time, making it almost as fast as LHW (.2sec difference, not a lot) Spamming this combination will make you oom
in no time. Currently on a tank, with the way they kinda die in 3-4 swings, if he his really low on health LHW+LHW will
be better than riptide+HW. If the tank is around 40%hp+, it's probably safe, depends on which boss, and which ability he is
currently doing

- +25% healing on CH if cast on same target : Again, you will overheal for a huge amount on the first target, you will overheal some on 2nd target,
and will get a nice insignificant bonus on 3rd and 4th targets.


So when you cast riptide, you do a small instant heal, you overheal during 15 secondes, you have a chance to overheal even more during 12 secondes. You can after that overheal more on 2 targets and cry for the ridiculous healing your 3rd and 4th targets are getting. Finally , you can get a crit LHW that will gives you mana and a great heal (around 10k) or get a fast HW that wasn't necessary on a raid member, you can heal your tank and hope your initial 5k hp was sufficient for him to not die while he waits for the 18k+ that he will get (while he could have had 2x 9k (maybe 12k if crit) during thhe same amount of time)

If every buff that Riptide provides is leading towards an overheal, wouldn't that mean that Riptide is a strong heal by default? For example, if Earthliving HoT is overhealing after RT, then that means RT is doing its job as a heal. If Riptide is such a weak heal, then you would be praying for that EL HoT or Tidal Waves everytime you cast RT because it'd be giving RT the healing boost you think it needs.


In other words you're complaining for the sake of complaining. You're complaining about RT being a weak heal on one hand, then go on to say that RT sucks because it heals so much that it makes subsequent heals and proccs useless.

BTW, you do have another instant healing spell. Its called Earth Shield.

And people wonder why Blizzard doesn't take Shaman complaints seriously....

[Waterisbest]

Spell that may not be amazing but you have control over > roughly the same spell that you have no control over what so ever due to RNG

A spell that procs on unlimited players and is great on movement fights > A spell that stays in one place and does not really help on movement fights.

I am not saying HR is a crap spell. I am saying Efflorescence makes HR look like a crap spell. Blizzard just had to make a spell for Shamans but then went on to make a better version of it for Druid...

---------- Post added 2010-08-18 at 06:17 PM ----------

In other words you're complaining for the sake of complaining. You're complaining about RT being a weak heal on one hand, then go on to say that RT sucks because it heals so much that it makes subsequent heals and proccs useless.

BTW, you do have another instant healing spell. Its called Earth Shield.

And people wonder why Blizzard doesn't take Shaman complaints seriously....

If you and your friends think that Resto Shaman regen is OP then you and your friends clearly don't know about Resto Shamans during the start of WotLK and Ulduar.

Skilled Resto Shamans were replaced for equally skilled Resto Druids or Holy Priests during Ulduar, because Resto Shamans healing and regen were utter crap

It was at start of TotC or a few weeks before TotC that Resto Shaman (and every other Shaman specc) got buffed and made Resto Shamans HMs useful.

---------- Post added 2010-08-18 at 06:27 PM ----------

False.

Explain yourself.

Efflorescence -

-Procs ON a player, who heals everyone within 15 yards
-Unlimited procs
-Great on movement fights
-Does not cost mana
-Does not need to be casted
-Heal every second for 7 seconds
-Can be applied to anyone
-No CD.

Healing Rain -

-Placed on a targeted area
-Has a 10 yards area of effect
-Costs mana
-Weak on movement fights
-Has a cast time
-Heals every 2 seconds for 10 sec
-Can't be applied to anyone
-10 sec cd.

Blizzard said Cataclysm will host a lot of movement fights. If that's the case, this is what is going to happen with that spell...

You cast it on a target area, only to see people move in another direction.

or

You cast it under a group of players, only to see them move within a few secs, costing you mana and healing for a very little amount which wasn't worth the cast and mana.

I have explained myself. Now your turn to explain why it's better then Efflorescence.




Every healer will bring great tank and raid healing while bringing CDs for emergencies to help the raid or the tank. Resto Shamans will bring Mr. Bogus with them so he can dance and make silly emotes.

[QQingshaman]

Healing rain can be used with chain heal at the same time, find the uses for it and I think it will be a nice spell. At least if you are going to hate on this, dont cry if you cant get good aoe healing. Personally I think it is a nice addition, an aoe heal which people can stand in to heal themselves. If it is strong it can be used for a good amount of situations.

its a useful lightwell

[Gestopft]

BTW, you do have another instant healing spell. Its called Earth Shield.

...(scratches head...) but since there is no healing upon the application of earth shield, and you (should) already have earth shield on a target at all times, it doesn't really increase your healing any. (If refreshing resets the icd (? I don't know) then maybe a slight increase, but hardly noticeable) It's more of a "I'll refresh this because its going to need to be refreshed eventually and I don't have anything else to do once I've used riptide." I mean, technically, it is an instant cast spell...but it doesn't do any instant healing on its own.

[Hypernetic]

I'll gladly take Healing Rain over Divine Hymn. Or any of the other not fantastic abilities I get in Cataclysm as a discipline priest. Power Word : Barrier has a 3 minute cooldown. That sucker won't last past Deathwing's toecleave.

Cry more, maybe Blizzard will get fed up of shaman QQ so badly they just take all your great new toys away and give them to far more deserving players.

Get this disc priest BS out of here.

[Kenai]

Explain yourself.

Ok. It would help if your list wasn't full of hyperbole, however.

Efflorescence -

-Procs ON a player, who heals everyone within 15 yards on a single spell that will only be cast on a tank and relies on a crit to proc
-Unlimited procs on a crit that is entirely up to chance, meaning it will not ALWAYS happen and certainly not always when needed, unlike Healing Rain which can be planned for upcoming spells and aoe
-Great on movement fights false, the flora stays on the ground and can easily be moved out of, and the spell needed to proc it is not instant
-Does not cost mana only if you aren't counting the spell linked to it
-Does not need to be casted see above
-Heal every second for 7 seconds ok
-Can be applied to anyone just like healing rain? except you do not cast regrowth on anyone, that's just silly
-No CD. ok

Healing Rain -

-Placed on a targeted area ok, a good thing
-Has a 10 yards area of effect shorter than effor, yes. A decent trade considering it goes wherever you want, imo
-Costs mana like most on demand spells, yep
-Weak on movement fights remains to be seen, but since you can plan where you put it I'm not thinking it's worse than effor
-Has a cast time yes
-Heals every 2 seconds for 10 sec yep, more time for damage to be there to be healed. pluses and minuses compared to effor I guess
-Can't be applied to anyone why not? I can cast it anywhere I want
-10 sec cd that's fine, since it's an on demand spell and will last the entire cd

Blizzard said Cataclysm will host a lot of movement fights. If that's the case, this is what is going to happen with that spell...

You cast it on a target area, only to see people move in another direction. not if you plan like you should. it won't work in every situation I'm sure, but it's certainly an option, especially in a fight with damaging aoe and auras, which I'm sure are not going away. options are not bad

or

You cast it under a group of players, only to see them move within a few secs, costing you mana and healing for a very little amount which wasn't worth the cast and mana. see above. not EVERY fight is going to be movement, I doubt even half of them will, and you should know better than to think so with 100% certainty




Every healer will bring great tank and raid healing while bringing CDs for emergencies to help the raid or the tank. as will resto shaman. We could use more emergency cooldowns for sure, but please don't act like we can't do anything, because that's a pretty dumb thing to say

[superstargoddess]

I don't like target spells like this and DnD for the DK, but I think that this spell will be pretty awesome. The only thing that would make it better is if it just dropped it on the ground around you and you didn't have to target it, like Pally Consecration.