Cataclysm heroic damage = Ridiculous.

[Possiblyreefer]

Healer mana replen or conservation is undertuned at the moment. but cata wont be free epics hopefully. everything else i have seen from total biscuit has been good. hes not the worlds best player and doesnt pretend to be however he is decent enough to be able to work out a strategy rather than "PULL ALL AND AOE" . only thing i have seen wrong is the core hound with pups that is massively broken

[AlexGrey]

Look, I barely played in BC, so I don't 100% understand how things should be this hard, everyone refers to BC as the 'hardest heroics', and I wouldn't know, Sorry, not everyone know's everything.

Ive got a few 80's, none of them fairly geared. Yeah I've done ICC, I've got my Red Proto Drake, but none of that even measures up to how hard some of these encounters can be in Cataclysm, as people are saying, WoTLK was faceroll, and now I'm understanding that.

So again, I'm sorry if I don't adapt as easily as others.

No need to apologize bro. Trust us you will enjoy harder heroics and raid content. BC heroics made you contemplate your actions much more and truly prepared you for tier 1 raiding, and that's what it is all about.

[Wonderwuman]

Hey gang.

I've got a few premades on beta atm, and I just did a few random heroics on my recently copied Retadin.

I noticed 2 major things.

1) The damage is absolutely ridiculous. Mobs were hitting for almsot 60% of my hp (89k). The tank would almost get 2 hit in any scenario. Don't get me started on bosses.

2) Healers going oom in literally 12 seconds. They have to use the fast very expensive heal to keep the tanks alive due to the overwhelming damage.

That's pretty much it. I've attempted at least 50+ heroics and not once have I downed a boss due to tanks dying in a healcast or healers going oom faster than i can get a full rotation off.
Not happy at all.

lulz 50 heroics and you havnt killed one boss?

[Toby John Kenobi]

Did you even read the name?

It is called a heroic Dungeon. Not "i can get through this in less then 30 minu...OMG HEALER SUCKS, TANK SUCK, DPS IS TOO LOW"-Dungeon

Expect it to be hard

[Volitar]

Some hard heroics is good but just think about some of the groups you have ran into from wotlk lfg imagine this nightmare in cata when heroics are somewhat challenging

[AlexGrey]

Did you even read the name?

It is called a heroic Dungeon. Not "i can get through this in less then 30 minu...OMG HEALER SUCKS, TANK SUCK, DPS IS TOO LOW"-Dungeon

Expect it to be hard

Truth. If it's too hard for people they can always go back to the normal versions and learn from there.

Btw where did you make your avatar?

[MVF]

Sounds good.

[Caradinist]

If this thing stays the same (probably not), but if it does, i cannot wait until i see the thread were the very same people who say "LOL, HEROIX SHULD BE EPIC" get their asses destroyed, and they complain here.

[13R00D100P5]

Look, I barely played in BC, so I don't 100% understand how things should be this hard, everyone refers to BC as the 'hardest heroics', and I wouldn't know, Sorry, not everyone know's everything.

Ive got a few 80's, none of them fairly geared. Yeah I've done ICC, I've got my Red Proto Drake, but none of that even measures up to how hard some of these encounters can be in Cataclysm, as people are saying, WoTLK was faceroll, and now I'm understanding that.

So again, I'm sorry if I don't adapt as easily as others.

Ok i just created a account afters years reading mmo champ just to answer that...
Woltk dungeons are a faceroll... because you can finish them all just if each class spam one bottom...
dont you believe me? ... or do you really think a dungeon where you can pull 5 groups of mobs and aoe them down is "fun"
TBC dungeons were fun because you indeed use CC and make the groups of mobs fight more dinamyc than just use aoe... i mean... of a point of view of a dps
Of a point of view of a tank... in woltk you never need to use CD to survive ( unless you agroo 4 groups of mobs )... you dont even need to know the mechanics of the mobs or the boss... you just go there and spam your best aoe ability and you are ready to tank every dungeon on woltk... tell me that is fun...
Good lord... on woltk a priest in discipline bubble a tank and he never die... they dont need to worry about a dps dying because they can even tank the final boss.. so if a mob go and attack the dps the healer have like 10 secs to heal him...

well but you dont ask for all that... you ask for why the heroics are so much harder... easy... because a dps is as much as important ( well a little less ) as the tank and the healer...but how? easy...

The dps obligation now its not only dmg the mobs... its also try to keep the dangerous mobs out so they can focus on one and not every dps on a different mob...

Also one last think... why did you think they name the dungeons Heroics... because they are indeed hard... if its too difficult go to the normal mode... gear you up and then go to the heroic... and then when you dont suck go to the raid... thats how the game was made to be... not normal dungeons while leveling and then go straight to heroics so i can gear up and then go to kill easy raids boss.. btw the raid boss in cata are gonna to be even harder...

even i as a casual player... i was able to kill maggy grull full clear karazhan... and even some bosses of vashj raid... and i was having fun... cuz i was playing the class

[Makaeith]

yeh ive seen the same things while ive been on beta on my premade toons, although i have cleard some of the heroics,
i think the main reason for that is a lot of the healers still are not used to what spells to use, when to use them, what is the most efficient heal to keep the tank/group up.

It'll just take a while before they nerf the heroics down a lil bit so that the avrg joe can clear it.. because atm the casual player base will NOT be able 2 clear heroics, not because of the gear thats given on the premades.. but the content inside the heroics

[Yoshimiko]

What about Shattered halls, Black Morass, and the undisputed champion: prenerf old hillsbrad? Or the green boglords in UB.

mmm I'll agree with prenerf old hillsbrad, but I never had a problem with the others. I didn't pug very much, so my standards may be a *bit* high for the higher-end ones.

Oh, Technicians made me Pull my hair out when the tank wouldn't back pedal too... I guess there were a few difficult ones, but a majority were rather easy.

[Flaks]

As someone who tanked TBC heroics at the appropriate gear level (blues/epics for lower tier heroics, epics for higher tier and tier 4 for h mgt) I can tell you that Cataclysm heroics are WAAAAAY overtuned currently.

The OP knows what he's talking about. I'm on beta and have tried all three roles. I'm an experienced tank and dps and know enough about the game to catch on to healing fast as well. Mana regen has completely gone to the shitters. There is no mana-based class that can lost longer than 20-30 seconds without blowing a major mana regen cd. This coupled with the fact that each pull takes no less than ONE MINUTE means that by the end of the pull everyone is OOM and at least one player is dead.

CC is absolutely mandatory to a worse extent than even TBC. If you don't get at least 2 or 3 mobs out of the match you can basically call it a wipe. DKs and Warriors are currently null and voided due to this unless they're tanking.

In all honesty, we can't say for sure the true state of heroics until the number pass comes around

The people that are saying "OMG FINALLY TOUGH HEROICS" don't know shit. Heroics are NOT balanced at the moment be it because of stupid class damage/healing/tanking numbers or overtuned mob/boss damage. The only groups that have managed to clear the heroics have 3 CC dps with them every single time and these are almost always casters. Caster damage is tuned far higher than most melee classes right now which also needs to be taken into consideration.

Along these lines, its silly that Blizzard is placing threat modifiers on tanking stances before the number pass comes through. Unbalanced (undertuned) tank damage means that we honestly don't know the level of threat tanks are supposed to be pulling and so placing modifiers just for the sake of testing content THAT REALLY SHOULDN'T BE TESTED IN ITS CURRENT STATE ANYWAYS means that they're making some silly errors that I hope won't make it to live. It seems like they're REALLY REALLY rush-testing the crap out of the game in this beta.

[Kazimir86]

What about Shattered halls, Black Morass, and the undisputed champion: prenerf old hillsbrad? Or the green boglords in UB.

I used to run Shattered Halls heroic daily, because the challenge was fun. Black Morass was kind of a pain if you didnt have someone that was really good at add control. Pre-nerf Old Hillsbrad I will agree to, that place was HARD. Stupid un-CCable scout guys.

[Willis]

Then we'll hear how everyone else is a noob, scrub or somehow incompetent and that only they are the ones not screwing up and we see dungeons nerfed and people whine they were nerfed and overtuned...

Or Blizzard ignores this problem as a problem when the much derided casuals who pay the bulk of the subs quit because it is too hard, the hardcore players bitch and moan that it takes longer than ever to get anything done because there aren't enough people and a few months later WOW is a handful of servers on it's way into shutting down.

Yay for elitist hardcore players getting exactly what they want!

Reality is Blizzard will do what it always does and find a better compromise that gives no one exactly what they want but something for everyone. There'll still be hardmodes, hard bosses and hard achievements but the game won't be the agonizing grind some people mistake for fun and entertainment.

ROFL I love these comments. Oh yes, Blizzard will go bankrupt and WoW will end if things are a hard for the players. Why do you think Blizzard is preparing Cataclysm like this? If WotLK was such a good thing they would have kept the same easy-aoe philosophy. Do people like you even realize that GOOD players leave when things are boring, mundane, and simply too easy?

[Maoli]

I started WoW a couple months before TBC and got to 70 a week after it hit. Geared up my DPS in some normal dungeons and went into heroics with some real life friends. TBC heroics were tough. Sure, if you are a raiding from vanilla, maybe they didn't seem tough... but they were tough for newer people. I think similarly the newer people of WoTLK will have a tough time at the beginning of cataclysm. Maintaining CC when you aren't used to using CC abilities (and dropping threat/reappling CC) is pretty tough at first.

I think cataclysm is going to be a big shock to all the people that reroll healers/tanks in WoTLK. I run H-HoR/ICC with some healers that were just not very good at all. In cataclysm I think they'll be having a hard time. I definitely see guilds having more of an impact in daily dungeons and gearing up from dungeons. Which IMO is a good thing. Guilds make the game more fun for people.

Something i've noticed from all the heroic videos i've watched it the big difference in difficult between those just rushing into the heroics and those actually geared up to ilevel 333. Thing sound a lot more normal once you get the proper level gear. Of course using proper CC helps. Once people start actually gearing up and getting badges thinks will level out.

LFD won't be that terrible.... because everyone SHOULD be doing the normal dungeons first to gear up anyways in preparation for the heroics. Tanks/Healers that rush into heroics will probably get rocked bigtime and realize they need the gear .

[Niter]

People are getting funny nowadays. Some people just assume that whenever a complaint arises it happens because the person who said it or the group of said person is bad, does not use CC, blah blah blah.

The fact is that some heroics have crazy damage. Good or not, that is a fact, and it is most likely being nerfed.

People need to be more skilled and that is a great thing. I remember Vanilla and TBC fondly in that regard, but we should not be elitists and forget about the damn obvious: endgame back in Vanilla was not so interesting, and less than 10% of the entire WoW population actually got to raid back then. The game did not have the same number of subscribers, so it was not exactly "fine" like it was, unlike somebody said it.

In TBC the game got better and better, but then again, who could actually raid? Less than 10% of WoW population, once again. Blizzard has stated several times that that IS NOT the kind of design they are going after any more. Raiding takes time and resources, and if a much greater portion of the community will not play it, then it is not good for them.

Having said that, the game IS NOT going to be like it was in Vanilla or TBC. Cataclysm is Cataclysm, it will not be as difficult as it is on beta right now, things will be toned down, that is for sure. And you know what? I think that is a good thing. Why do I say that?

Yeah, I am a veteran player and all that, but I played TBC heroics to exhaustion back in the day, the last TBC raid I cleared was Hyjal before I had to take a somewhat long break. I do NOT, definitely NOT, want dungeons that take as long as Shattered Halls. I do not want to have to rely on all party members doing their job as if they were experts. Having to calculate every single thing is not fun. It is a NOVELTY to most, but it will be frustrating. Once everybody knows how to apply the CC, avoid instant death mechanics and all that, we all know the drill: "the game is too easy! It is aimed at bads and casuals! No sense of accomplishment anymore!". We just know it will be like that.

TBC heroics were not exactly hard, they were more like "do it this way or wipe because the game does not offer you many choices to handle this situation". Some of them were hard (Shadow Labs, for instance), but most of them were kinda easy. Let's not think of them as if they were amazing, very challenging and all that, because that would not be very accurate.

LFD is a great tool, Blizzard is proud of it and it does not make any sense at all if we are to say "do not use it, you will be grouped with baddies! Find yourself a guild!". We all know that is not realistic by any stretch of imagination. Most of us have several alts and it is not likely that the vast majority of the players will have enough guild members to guarantee that whenever you are running heroics you will be doing so alongside your guildmates. It is not realistic.

Having said that, I think that Cataclysm's heroics should be harder, they should have mechanics that can cause harm no matter what level of gear you wear. However, the key word Blizzard is most likely going for is CHALLENGING, not exactly HARD. Raids should be harder, heroics should provide enough practice and it is a way to gear up.

WoW getting harder is a great thing, but the extreme changes some people are waiting for are going to be a major disappointment.

[hakujinbakasama]

As someone who tanked TBC heroics at the appropriate gear level (blues/epics for lower tier heroics, epics for higher tier and tier 4 for h mgt) I can tell you that Cataclysm heroics are WAAAAAY overtuned currently.

Ok, I just went out of my way to create an account just to mock this post.
I too did heroics in TBC. I recall very painfully what it was like to pug a group in TBC. The questions were... "What is your hp?" and "Are you in S2 equal gear?" That is how you got into a pug. TBC was an absolute nightmare, but you know what, I'm so willing to welcome those days back.

It used to be people like me could actually make a name for themselves. When I played a hunter back when, and actually got into a group, I busted my ass to try for top dps, CC, and save vs wipes at every turn. Because back then, if you were a crapy player... guess what, you got known for being as such. There was no, jump into a random pool, suck it up because they can't boot you, collect a reward, and then laugh all the way to the vendor.

People who are complaining about Cat piss me off to no end. Do any of you little chumps actually know what it was like to not be Defense capped the moment you reached max level? Anyone else remember what a pain the ass it was to get defcap so you could tank a heroic as a paladin and not die in the first 10 seconds or less of a pull? WotLK handed people the keys to the city from lvl 1 and never looked back and now all of you are sitting around crying because to move forward with your over exagerated epeens you're actually going to have to earn it. Get over it or gtfo.

Frankly, this is blizzards fault and I hope they stick to their word and don't cave for you all again.

[LoLHellcy]

As someone who tanked TBC heroics at the appropriate gear level (blues/epics for lower tier heroics, epics for higher tier and tier 4 for h mgt) I can tell you that Cataclysm heroics are WAAAAAY overtuned currently.

The OP knows what he's talking about. I'm on beta and have tried all three roles. I'm an experienced tank and dps and know enough about the game to catch on to healing fast as well. Mana regen has completely gone to the shitters. There is no mana-based class that can lost longer than 20-30 seconds without blowing a major mana regen cd. This coupled with the fact that each pull takes no less than ONE MINUTE means that by the end of the pull everyone is OOM and at least one player is dead.

CC is absolutely mandatory to a worse extent than even TBC. If you don't get at least 2 or 3 mobs out of the match you can basically call it a wipe. DKs and Warriors are currently null and voided due to this unless they're tanking.

In all honesty, we can't say for sure the true state of heroics until the number pass comes around

The people that are saying "OMG FINALLY TOUGH HEROICS" don't know shit. Heroics are NOT balanced at the moment be it because of stupid class damage/healing/tanking numbers or overtuned mob/boss damage. The only groups that have managed to clear the heroics have 3 CC dps with them every single time and these are almost always casters. Caster damage is tuned far higher than most melee classes right now which also needs to be taken into consideration.

Along these lines, its silly that Blizzard is placing threat modifiers on tanking stances before the number pass comes through. Unbalanced (undertuned) tank damage means that we honestly don't know the level of threat tanks are supposed to be pulling and so placing modifiers just for the sake of testing content THAT REALLY SHOULDN'T BE TESTED IN ITS CURRENT STATE ANYWAYS means that they're making some silly errors that I hope won't make it to live. It seems like they're REALLY REALLY rush-testing the crap out of the game in this beta.

/agreed all the way

we're talking about Heroics, not freaking HM raids... They shouldn't be faceroll but they should be possible for more than the perfect group comps....

[Maoli]

People are getting funny nowadays. Some people just assume that whenever a complaint arises it happens because the person who said it or the group of said person is bad, does not use CC, blah blah blah.

Did you read his post? Tank getting two-shot all the time. He admits to pulled aggro (60% his damage comment). Healer going oom in 12 seconds? Come on. I bet his heroics go like this....

Tank runs into groups of mobs. Dps start blowing them up. Since tanks can't hold aggro with aoe as well (pre 200% threat generation added the other day) the Dps all pull. Healer has to go nuts healing all the dpsers and blows all his mana on expensive fast heals. They wipe.
He said he couldn't get past the first pull in stonecore. If I remember correctly you have to dps down manastorm guy before he summons elementals. I bet inside of everyone focusing him and ignore the adds they all started aoeing and pulling aggro. Manastorm summoned a couple elementals cause they took too long to damage him down and the healer had to go nuts on fast heals so they wiped.

[Niter]

Did you read his post? Tank getting two-shot all the time. He admits to pulled aggro (60% his damage comment). Healer going oom in 12 seconds? Come on. I bet his heroics go like this....

Maoli, most people in this thread did not care about the specifics of the OP's complaint, they have said what they posted in every single thread regarding Cataclysm heroic dungeons. My post aimed at that.

Yes, the damage IS crazy right now, sometimes it is too spiky and even skilled parties wipe due to RNG, minor mistakes and so on. If the OP is good or bad, I am not really interested in his/her particular case.

Healing is not ready, tanking is not ready, DPSing is not quite there yet, and the damage mobs do to tanks and parties alike is higher than it should.

People say "this is how the game is supposed to be, TBC this, TBC that", and that is just their expectations. They are going to use any possible threads to state that. I wanted to say otherwise and provide better reasoning than "I wanna be a pro, I am Mr. Fantastic, the rest suck it up or do something else!". That is all.