Competition for Cata Raid Spots for Rets

[kaskadereno]

Blizzard seems to have been unhappy with the concept of "unique snowflake buffs" and in Cataclysm raid composition I was under the impression they would be homogenized/removed/reduced (more or less). Lately, I have been thinking about what raid compositions will be like post-cata. So I looked at all the talent trees as they are right now and noticed alot of the classes still have their talented raidbuffs-
Frost DKs have Improved Icy Talons, Unholy Dks have Ebon Plaguebringer, Feral Druids have Leader of the Pack, Assassination Rogues have Master Poisioner, MM Hunters have Trueshot Aura ...to name a few.

Then, looking at the ret tree....

Heart of the Crusader - removed
Sanctified Retribution - replaced by Communion, so we still have this (edited as I had made a slight error...whoops)
Swift Retribution - removed (Moonkin form still in the balance tree, provides the same buff)
Replenishment - remains, also in Communion talent

Now, thinking on the non-talent buffs provided by rets:
Blessings - in essence we have kept Blessing of Wisdom and Might, only one Paladin is needed tho. Kings is done by druids lol.
Auras - kept those, changed slightly....
CDs: Hand of Protection, Hand of Sacrifice, Lay on Hands

Did I miss anything? Anyway, I hope I didn't come off too cynical. These changes probably won't be an issue for those of us who do great damage, have high survivability and learn fights and strategies quickly and are able to execute them. But if there is already replenishment in a raid, some rets are going to have a hard time competing with others vying for a spot who do equal damage and have just as good awareness as they do. There may only be room for one ret paladin per 25 man in a serious progression guild, if that.

What do you guys think? Agree? Disagree? Cause for concern or not a problem?

[lunchbox2042]

Communion still provides 3% raid damage from auras. Most serious progression guilds only took 1 ret paladin throughout BT and Sunwell so it wouldn't be any different and you don't need more than 1 ret paladin in today's game either.

[Auton]

Sanctified Retribution - removed (Arcane Mages still have Arcane Empowerment- with a different name, BM Hunters still have Ferocious Inspiration in their trees)

Not that I disagree with you, but this is still found as a part of Communion (the Replenishment talent)

[Nikoll]

I thinnk we all have this conceren. Right Noe it looks likethere will only be room for one paladin in a 10man, and possibly in a 25 depending on strength of holy. Prot looks very weak at threat ATM(casting word of glory is nearly the same threat as sor and is much much more than con or holy wrath) where ret is also not balanced correctly yet. Now I have not had time nor a healthy computer to be able to test ptr and I'm not in beta so my views are from other peoples posts.

Ret's best bet ATM is to stay put and hope nobody noticed you've been gimped. Without improvment don't expect a lot of lf ret paladin guilds.

[Pickwickman]

Dude, thank you firstly for not making this a trollthread/whinepost.

Secondly, on topic, we have our blessings and our hands, both are very nice.

Our Blessing of Might is not Wisdom and Might at the same time, this in comparison with other classes gives us an edge, as they only provide one of the two parts of the buff.

We hace fairly unique helpful buffs in our Hand spells, they really can turn the tide in a battle, be it PvE or PvP. Kings is done by Druids is mitigated by druids not doing MotW, this means we can both give it, which opens more free slots to bring your top-performing raiders instead of the raidstacking we needed to do in Vanilla/TBC and some stages in WotlK to make encounters easier/trivial.

We have Replenishment as Auton above me already pointed out.

The game shouldn't be about the class, but about the player. And this is the way Blizzard wants to do it. They could also just take away all buffs entirly and make 4 classes "tank/healer/physicaldps/rangeddps" but that would be very, very bland. This way all classes have their unqiue playstyle and still benefit your raidgroup.

Edit: Nikoll, the recent buff to RF has done wonders for our threat, but Ret is still undertuned. This is the case for nearly every melee dps tree at the moment, except for DK's and I thought Muti Rogues.

[Ralan]

Blizzard has said they want you to bring a play because of their skill not class or buffs. No one has unique buffs anymore but they have unique play styles. If you raid revolves around having a certain buff just to succeed then that's just a bad raid. Sure everyone would like all the buffs in a raid but it's not necessary. Ret still has the 3% damage buff but it's in communion with replenishment too. I think Cata will get to the point where the need of skilled players is going to overwrite the need for certain buffs. I would rather have someone who knows what they are doing and provide no buffs than a sloppy player with a buff, but that's just me.

[Badpaladin]

The problem with the niches paladins had(very strong raid buffs and unique buffs not brought by anybody else(AM, DG), strong tank heals, great AoE and add tanking, strong DPS coupled with some buffs that would require more obscure(and less optimal) specs for a raid to pick up) is that they're all offered by other, stronger classes now.

[Badpaladin]

Well, your buff should never be a reason to take you to a raid.
And if retridin damage is enough reason to decline them from raids, Blizzard will buff it.

(a) I highly disagree. 25 mans are flexible enough to include all classes, and requiring specific classes to make it through a fight is a really cool thing because it feels like the class you chose has more bearing on the encounter. If every class did about the same thing, why not just make all classes/specs the same?

(b) Yeah...no. They still haven't fixed shaman who were pretty bad from day one of wrath.

[kaskadereno]

Oh now I feel silly. Communion does indeed apply 3% damage raid wide. Well, I guess that means we only lost Heart of the Crusader and Swift Retribution.....as far as talents go. Guess I better edit my original post lol.

[Pickwickman]

Blizzard has said they want you to bring a play because of their skill not class or buffs. No one has unique buffs anymore but they have unique play styles. If you raid revolves around having a certain buff just to succeed then that's just a bad raid. Sure everyone would like all the buffs in a raid but it's not necessary. Ret still has the 3% damage buff but it's in communion with replenishment too. I think Cata will get to the point where the need of skilled players is going to overwrite the need for certain buffs. I would rather have someone who knows what they are doing and provide no buffs than a sloppy player with a buff, but that's just me.

Beat you to it

If 10 people could bring every buff in a 25-raid, that would leave 15 random spots to fill with good players, so you WILL get a raidspot if you are skilled.

Your post is full of win. You should not rely on your raidspot by delivering a certain buff, you should rely on it because you truly are willing to progress and utilise your character to the maximum.

[cooespooh]

The homogenization of buffs was done for the purpose of, essentially, keeping threads like this from being made. They don't want you to be brought because of buffs you give. They want you to be brought because you are a good player. You shouldn't have to worry about if you can get a raid spot, because if you do, then you probably should find a guild with people that like you enough to give you one without you having a buff they don't have.

[Badpaladin]

The homogenization of buffs was done for the purpose of, essentially, keeping threads like this from being made. They don't want you to be brought because of buffs you give. They want you to be brought because you are a good player. You shouldn't have to worry about if you can get a raid spot, because if you do, then you probably should find a guild with people that like you enough to give you one without you having a buff they don't have.

And it will have precisely the exact opposite effect. Blizzard cannot and will not make all damage/healing even across the board because of PvP. If you've already got ret's buffs covered, why bring a ret over a class/spec that does more damage? Name me one logical reason why.

[Pickwickman]

(a) I highly disagree. 25 mans are flexible enough to include all classes, and requiring specific classes to make it through a fight is a really cool thing because it feels like the class you chose has more bearing on the encounter. If every class did about the same thing, why not just make all classes/specs the same?

(b) Yeah...no. They still haven't fixed shaman who were pretty bad from day one of wrath.

A) But oh yes it should be, I don't see the point in taking someone who is bad, but brings an awesome buff. I'd rather bring someone skilled, who realy deserves the raidspot. And blizzard is doing their best to diversify every class. Be it through recource management/spells/cooldowns and they are doing a terrific job at it. The playstyle is different, what you bring to the raid isn't. This is good.

B) Got a point there, Blizzard also doesn't want to relive 3.0 again, so I presume they will start by undertuning Paladins just a little bit to buff them later in the expansion and pulling them to the same level as the other DPS. This to look at the effect of Holy Power.

---------- Post added 2010-10-08 at 11:25 PM ----------

And it will have precisely the exact opposite effect. Blizzard cannot and will not make all damage/healing even across the board because of PvP. If you've already got ret's buffs covered, why bring a ret over a class/spec that does more damage? Name me one logical reason why.

If the said Ret at top-performance did more damage than the other class (which, in your example should theoretically do more damage), you take the Ret. This is how it should be. But this implies that Blizzard has to balance everyone perfectly. This cannot happen.

[theomegapoint]

Blizzard cannot and will not make all damage/healing even across the board because of PvP.

Explain to me why potential dmg in a static PvE environment has anything to do with damage output in a dynamic PvP environment, one with drastically increased health-pools and dramatically decreased healing potential, one in which utility and control mean more than raw numbers.

Cuz you just sound like a whiny bitch.

Also, it makes much more sense to argue mechanics, not numbers. Which mechanics, if any, do you think are the cause of Ret's weakened potential. I think even with your limited cognitive abilities you could manage this.

[cooespooh]

And it will have precisely the exact opposite effect. Blizzard cannot and will not make all damage/healing even across the board because of PvP. If you've already got ret's buffs covered, why bring a ret over a class/spec that does more damage? Name me one logical reason why.

Because you would rather raid with some guy that you know and isn't a douche over a guy that flaunts his epeen wherever he goes since he thinks he's superior to the other guy? Usually the reason I bring people to raids as it currently stands.

[Badpaladin]

A) But oh yes it should be, I don't see the point in taking someone who is bad, but brings an awesome buff. I'd rather bring someone skilled, who realy deserves the raidspot. And blizzard is doing their best to diversify every class. Be it through recource management/spells/cooldowns and they are doing a terrific job at it. The playstyle is different, what you bring to the raid isn't. This is good.

B) Got a point there, Blizzard also doesn't want to relive 3.0 again, so I presume they will start by undertuning Paladins just a little bit to buff them later in the expansion and pulling them to the same level as the other DPS. This to look at the effect of Holy Power.

(a) Agree to disagree. Choosing a class solely for playstyle with regards to raiding and having its effects bring nothing special to a specific encounter isn't my idea of a cool aspect of a game.

(b) I always speak from a higher-end perspective, where nobody is even allowed into raids unless they are at or near their theoretical maximum. If somebody can't pull as much as their class is capable of pulling, they're not even a part of this discussion and shouldn't be because they're bad. As such, if an arcane mage or bm hunter is pulling more than you and you already have two sources of Replenishment, why bring the ret? You have absolutely no good reason other than favoritism, and this game isn't designed around that. I sort of merged your two statements into this response.

---------- Post added 2010-10-08 at 11:34 PM ----------

Explain to me why potential dmg in a static PvE environment has anything to do with damage output in a dynamic PvP environment, one with drastically increased health-pools and dramatically decreased healing potential, one in which utility and control mean more than raw numbers.

Cuz you just sound like a whiny bitch.

Also, it makes much more sense to argue mechanics, not numbers. Which mechanics, if any, do you think are the cause of Ret's weakened potential. I think even with your limited cognitive abilities you could manage this.

I'll use elemental shaman as an example. Their damage sucks in PvE(except for a few fights like Saurfang) because of their current, frontloaded mechanics. If they were to just simply up the scaling of their nukes, pvp would be even more insane. If the were to make Flame Shock crit really fucking hard, they'd have big pressure and burst in pvp. It's a lose-lose unless you completely revamp mechanics, and then new problems arise.

I bring up PvP because PvP and PvE in WoW aren't separate entities. You don't have an entirely different set of spells you cast in PvP unless your entire tree is designed for it(arms, frost) and as such any pve changes have pvp consequences.

---------- Post added 2010-10-08 at 11:35 PM ----------

Because you would rather raid with some guy that you know and isn't a douche over a guy that flaunts his epeen wherever he goes since he thinks he's superior to the other guy? Usually the reason I bring people to raids as it currently stands.

If your main goal is to progress competitively, that's a stupid move. besides, just don't give the guy any loot if he's that much a prick.

[Pickwickman]

If your main goal is to progress competitively, that's a stupid move. besides, just don't give the guy any loot if he's that much a prick.

Then he leaves and you don't have the buff you needed him to supply you anymore. See where I am heading at.

Ps: I agree to disagree too, you are one fuzzy llama <3. Only just want to say, it is not like all classes get all buffs, it's more like, 'ah, that's an unique buff, lets make it so that 2-3 classes get it.'

And I totally agree at Elemental getting the shaft in current raiding. But that comes from the fact that they are, together with Boomkins, the most dependent on reaching a 100% casttime uptime. With current mechanics we need to move so much that it just becomes too much of a factor in the dps of those Trees.

Point B though, I agree too, but do keep in mind that the intention is to gain perfect balance in DPS so you can get the person you want more into your raid. This will never happen, but it is a good intention.

Disregarding that, we as Paladins will still have lots of little buffs in the form of our Hands. Which you could maybe rarely use right now, but in Cataclysm having to worry about the endurance of your healers will make you decide to use your HoP on a target or whatnot, something NO other class can do. Which makes the Paladin unique.

[Badpaladin]

A) Examples: We had to cancel a 10-man progression raid because we had no shaman. That is something Blizzard does not want.
You have different classes and specs because they play differently, not because spec or class B is better, that would be a terrible system.
And you will still need a 'specific' class to make it through a fight, heroic lich king was a nice example.. But it should not be the standard for raiding.
Imagine guilds that aren't that hardcore? "Sorry guys, no progress this week because only paladins signed and we NEED those druids."

that's something more easily solved with the normal mode/hard mode deal(which I love, by the way). Normal mode can be easy and done with just about any raid composition, and that's really what the vast majority of raiders do anyways. Hard modes, on the other hand, should have specific compositions with little room for error. If a guild is regularly doing hard modes(and I don't mean with a 30% buff tacked on, because 90% of the 11/12 guilds would barely be 3/12 by now) then they shouldn't have an issue of "oh, we just don't have any druids in the guild".

B) Our enhancement shaman does 16k dps on Saurfang and is in the top 5 of almost every fight.
And not to be mean or anything, but have you check the shaman-discussion forums? Or the shaman feedback? It's almost non-excistent.

I agree with you about feedback, and there does need to be more...but 16k isn't that much. I'm usually over 17k on single-target fights with a pretty sub-optimal raid group, and one rogue in that group regularly does over 18k(which is good placement for a rogue imo). I bet your shaman is better geared than me, and is probably pretty good at enhance...but his numbers are still 1k or more under mine, when we're both hybrids. From a number's standpoint, that's not right by any means.

---------- Post added 2010-10-08 at 11:51 PM ----------

Then he leaves and you don't have the buff you needed him to supply you anymore. See where I am heading at.

Ps: I agree to disagree too, you are one fuzzy llama <3. Only just want to say, it is not like all classes get all buffs, it's more like, 'ah, that's an unique buff, lets make it so that 2-3 classes get it.'

And I totally agree at Elemental getting the shaft in current raiding. But that comes from the fact that they are, together with Boomkins, the most dependent on reaching a 100% casttime uptime. With current mechanics we need to move so much that it just becomes too much of a factor in the dps of those Trees.

I see where you're coming from, believe me(and I also don't think you're stupid for thinking that way). In that particular case though, rewarding good behavior with loot(ie "stop being a dick and we'll give you the next piece you want") nips it in the bud. Again, this is more about guild politics though.

[theomegapoint]

If its a matter of maximum theoretical damage output - then sorry, another class is always, always going to beat you on at least half the fights. Just your mere status as a hybrid class puts a cap on your dps below that of a pure class on a fight that benefits each of you equally, assuming equal levels of skill and gear. If paladins like a certain fight, chances are a rogue is too - and chances are he will outpace you eventually. That's just the way the game works. Unless you are massively more skilled than the other members of your raid team (which shouldn't be the case in a top 1000 guild) you will never be in the top 3 100% of the time.

Since that is the reality of the situation, that no character can ever reach their maximum because of a number of reasons that are out of the hands of the player controlling them, then its not about numbers, and potential damage relative to other classes isn't as important as the player behind the avatars. Are they consistent? Are they reliable? Are they fun to play with? Do they cause a lot of drama? These are all things GOOD officers and GOOD raid leaders will take into account when constructing a roster.

Edit: If you are part of a raiding team that doesn't care about those points up above, then I highly doubt you will be as successful as others that do. Guilds stick together because of good management and a good guild culture, not because of progress. Individual players are another story. Perhaps being an officer and raid leader myslef clouds this judgement, but I think "guild politics" is a lot more important in the long run than whether or not A can do 2k more dps at lvl 85 than B on X, Y, and Z fights.

[Badpaladin]

Since that is the reality of the situation, that no character can ever reach their maximum because of a number of reasons that are out of the hands of the player controlling them, then its not about numbers, and potential damage relative to other classes isn't as important as the player behind the avatars. Are they consistent? Are they reliable? Are they fun to play with? Do they cause a lot of drama? These are all things GOOD officers and GOOD raid leaders will take into account when constructing a roster.

I argue that it is. A lot of the Ulduar hard modes had strict enrage timers so you only wanted to bring what you absolutely needed for buffs and the rest had to be your best DPS, else you wouldn't get the kill. I can say with Confidence that my Judgment of Light was why I was brought to IC Hard Mode's kill, not my 2pc t9 and Aesir's edge, middle-of-the-meters DPS. After a boss is on farm you rotate people in, and if you're looking at raiding with that aspect then it's perfectly alright. But top 100(and even top 200) will make a raid composition for progression as tight as possible.