Divine Plea

[Deleted]

This is part of the problem though, if you use WoG whenever possible, it generally isn't necessary, then later, one or two WoG isn't enough for burst damage taken by the tank, then you need to use mana.
This happens often enough that you're using a lot of mana regardless of WoG.
And some fights have no "right time" to use DP.

HLK and HHalion are two fights where there are no transitions that take the time DP will stay active.
(Halion transitions kinda, but typically you want to start healing as soon as you exit the portal)

The problem is more that WoG doesn't give the throughput needed for Wrath content. So while it costs no mana, and we are balanced around using it a lot (at 85), many Wrath healadins are going OOM because casting WoG (or HS in non-moving situations) puts the tank in jeopardy of dying on heroic Wrath content.

Thanks for your points I don't raid as a paladin so I miss things sometimes. Right now I am healing on my priest in heroics and doing ToC10+25 and building up to higher raids. Its fun and works because you have loads of choice and Chakra makes it incredibly versatile.

I can see how paladins might be on the other side of the bench, being able to cast their 1 set of heals and if they don't work 100% you are stuck with them. In 5 mans I LOVE that "Heal" is such an efficient heal, maybe too efficient. I think all of the efficient heal spells need a 20% buff on healing and mana cost. Then they will be useful in wrath content. As it is the heal doesn't heal enough in raids on some bosses, and the extra mana cost of Flash and Greater isn't all that much of a negative for using the spells.

Blizzards idea is to be able to use the Efficient heal for normal moments in the fight, and then use your quick expensive heals (or big expensive) for core moments of the fight. As it is the damage is too quick to be able to use that design.

What is Holy Light like for paladins? what cast times/heal/mana is it.

[Cyros]

GC got a point tough, if we had no penatly we would always press it on cooldown. now we need to think before we press it. Im not too worried about it tbh.

[Stubb]

Holy light has a 2 sec cast, heals for about 5k - 7k out of icc and costs about 1300 mana.

I'll probably never use DP unless I have like 10% mana left and I have AW or DF(and 2pc t10) on cd.

Stubb

[Nillo]

GC got a point tough, if we had no penatly we would always press it on cooldown. now we need to think before we press it. Im not too worried about it tbh.

A penalty on it is ok, but not a penalty, that is so strong, that the mana gained is less than what you need to offset the horrible healing reduction. (and not healing for 15 seconds is rarely an option)

Especially at 85, where mana levels are not as inflated as they are now and you only gain mana for 1-2 big heals out of DP, there's actually no choice whether or not you want to press the button - you simply can't (unless you counter it with Guardian of Ancient Kings)

[blazto]

GC got a point tough, if we had no penatly we would always press it on cooldown. now we need to think before we press it. Im not too worried about it tbh.

Blizz can easily have DP without a penalty or reduced penalty by increasing CD. Our holy power mechanic is similar to rogues, why can't DP be similar to innervate?

[Elovan]

Blizz can easily have DP without a penalty or reduced penalty by increasing CD. Our holy power mechanic is similar to rogues, why can't DP be similar to innervate?

Because homogenization, while sometimes necessary, is undesirable for the overall health of the game. Turning DP into an innervate clone would be an unnecessary homogenization, when there are other ways to fix it. Personally I think just lowering the MS effect is all that's necessary, and I agree that it should not be removed entirely.

[blazto]

Because homogenization, while sometimes necessary, is undesirable for the overall health of the game. Turning DP into an innervate clone would be an unnecessary homogenization, when there are other ways to fix it. Personally I think just lowering the MS effect is all that's necessary, and I agree that it should not be removed entirely.

Homogenization? If Blizz was worried about homogenization, why did they change all healers to have the ability to raid or tank heal? Have you seen the armor and weapon models they use? Each healer brings their "own thing"(druid-brez,shammy-ankh) that will keep them different. Changing pallies regen CD to be inline with other healers wouldn't be any different than making kings and GoTW the same buff. Our T10 2pc bonus was designed around the penalty of DP, so apparently Blizz wanted to lessen the penalty. It's on a 2 min CD now with the same 50% penalty and tier 10 2pc bonus gone?

[Deleted]

t10 2 pc is in divine favour

[Elovan]

Homogenization? If Blizz was worried about homogenization, why did they change all healers to have the ability to raid or tank heal? Have you seen the armor and weapon models they use? Each healer brings their "own thing"(druid-brez,shammy-ankh) that will keep them different. Changing pallies regen CD to be inline with other healers wouldn't be any different than making kings and GoTW the same buff. Our T10 2pc bonus was designed around the penalty of DP, so apparently Blizz wanted to lessen the penalty. It's on a 2 min CD now with the same 50% penalty and tier 10 2pc bonus gone?

I didn't say I have the full understanding of everything Blizzard does, just that that reason is the main reason for not removing the MS from DP. As for the other changes, sometimes homogenization is a necessary evil. Blizzard themselves said they wished they didn't have to change every healer to have the same 3 basic heals, but they weren't sure they could balance it properly without them.

As for Blizz reversing their desire to lessen the penalty, that bonus was designed for Wrath style fights where we needed to have insane regen while keeping up strong heals in order to keep tanks alive. With Cataclysm the focus is more on mana preservation, so having a healer that would have the mana regen we had with DP pre-4.0.1 would be insanely OP.

[Rhoe]

I don't think paladins problem is their mana.
You are forget something out of the mana regen section. The fact that you are able to cast A LOT of free heals with Word of Glory. every 4th heal is guaranteed to be a free heal, and usually thats ever 3rd.

What? The only free heal holy paladins currently have is Word of Glory. It's not really worth casting at 1 or 2 holy power as it heals for way too little. It's not great at 3 holy power either, but it might actually be worth casting then just to save some mana if the tank isn't taking a beating. Every fourth cast is only guaranteed to be a free heal if the other three casts are either holy shock or aimed at your beacon target, wasting the +50% healing from beacon. Since HS is on a cd, only one of those three casts can be HS, the other two have to be on the beacon target. With your healing strategy, the holy paladin would only get the +50% healing from beacon on half their casts. Pretty much nerfing beacon of light in half again...

I have read around here now and there is still a question open:
Are there any 25HC heal palas that do not go oom and heal so little?

I healed on LK 25 HC yesterday. Our healer setup was 2 holy paladins, 2 resto shaman, 1 resto druid, 1 disc priest. If I spammed mostly flash of light, I was almost close to my old output on one target. On the BoL target... not so much. I was also nearly OOM by the end of the first transition phase, and that is with my gear fully reforged to spirit. The other holy paladin had reforged mastery instead and had to mostly spam HL. If it wasn't for trauma and the RS trinket (especially combined with LoD), his healing would've been less than what was provided from the shadow priests. Looking at WoL after, the druid was close to our healing output. No, not the resto druid, he did great. I'm talking about the MT and the output from his Savage Defense...

Paladin healer was broke for most of ICC I would say because they didnt have to manage their mana much unless forced to AE heal. Now it seems that paladins cant sustain their mana at all.

This is far from the truth, in my experience. If I didn't manage my mana (by using DP/AT and judging with SoW up, as well as throwing in the occasional FoL) I would definitely run out. However, if you're talking about FoL palas and normal modes, sure.

As for the moment paladins should rely more on other healers now. At some points other healers could go /afk when a paladin was around because they were so powerful. You will have to work around that now by working as a team with others. Innervate just might be yours now. The role is shifting. You will see where you land (I can tell you it wont be rerolled and no paladin around anymore and it wont be tank/DD)

Why should you have to rely more on other healers as a holy paladin? I don't feel the same need to rely on others when I'm playing my resto druid or disc priest alt. Also, why would you bring a holy paladin when you could bring something better? And why oh why would you give the innervate to a holy paladin when all the other healers have vastly better output?

Firstly if everyone is just overheal spamming, then your have to many healers take less.

When the tank is constantly getting smacked for 30-40k, not overhealing isn't really an option.

As for the above 2 second casts. We done have any, if you have a reasonable amount of haste, your holy light and divine light should be below 2 seconds, Before the haste buff from Speed of Light. Which they are removing for cata because it is OP. with that haste buff DL is 1.4 seconds as it currently stands. Casting fast enough is realy not an issue at the moment. If it is theres something wrong with your tanks.

My cast time on HL before 4.0.1 was slightly under 1.2 seconds raidbuffed. My cast time on DL now with SoL up is indeed 1.4 seconds, but SoL isn't even up for 50% of my heals with cast time as HS has a cd and daybreak doesn't exactly proc all the time.

As for the whole Balanced now issue, If your a hardcore raider you finished the content 6 months ago. So everyone here complaing there getting benched for progression arnt hardcore raiders. Or if you are, with no disrespect your guild are incredibly slow and must only be raiding 1 day a week.

Which means I have no right to play, no right to feel useful in a raid, no right to still want to progress? Or what do you mean? Ironically, my guild had problems with LK 25 hc due to the lack of holy paladins in guild. At least that won't be a problem anymore. >.<

Are you using the most efficient heals you can? Or sitting their spamming flash?

Of course I'm spamming flash. I don't want the tank to die halfway through my HL cast.

Are you using Divine Plea at optimal times in the fight, when healing is less important?

Unfortunately these optimal times only last for 5 seconds or so, but sure, 5 seconds of DP is more than 0.

Are you geared? My pally in my pvp gear had 24k mana, now he has almost 40k unbuffed... I haven't even put on my PvE gear yet, but I'm sure I'm pushing past 50k.

Pvp gear didn't have tons of intellect previous to 4.0.1, and you probably didn't gem full int. Holy paladins in pve gear did, so personally I gained 4k mana from this patch. My resto druid alt, on the other hand, gained 20k...

Most posts like this are from people not knowing how to play their class well enough, I hate to say. I'm not saying that's the case here(I don't PvE anymore), but we can't spam certain spells like we used to. From what I've noticed in spamming heals in pvp, my mana regen is about equal to what it was unless I'm a moron and sit there spamming flash,

It's understandable that a pvp hero would think that. I went into AV a couple of times yesterday for the halloween achievement and found that I was quite good in bg despite being a pvp noob in full pve gear. At one time I accidentally ran into 5 players from the opposite side and kept myself alive for a good long while until someone realised that chaining stuns and interrupts was a good idea.

[Deleted]

Latest blue post on Holy Healing:

Holy Paladins on Beta
After looking at more of the raid attempts on beta, we are worried that Holy paladins are doing too much area healing and not enough single target healing.

While we definitely want to scoot paladins away from their Lich King monopoly on tank healing and towards raid healing, we don't want to go too far. We're thinking about nerfing Holy Radiance and buffing single target healing. Again, the goal is not that Holy paladins only ever heal the tank, but we want them to actually be able to heal the tank as well.

On Holy Radiance, we think the 20 yard range shifted the spell from one where position was relevant to just blowing it on cooldown. We'll probably keep the 20 yard radius, but have a falloff to where the healing is highest within 8-10 yards of the paladin. This will also help the spell stay relevant in 5-player dungeons without being overpowered in larger raids. The cap for Holy Radiance (and Healing Rain for that matter) also aren't working correctly at the moment.

If we decide to buff single target healing, it would probably just be points on the 5 direct heals. We think Beacon is in a good place and aren't looking to overhaul the overall Holy mechanics. It's just a numbers issue.

Judging Seal of Insight (a change I alluded to earlier) will help with mana problems, especially when Divine Plea is on cooldown or you're nervous about using it.

Interesting:
So they are nerfing holy radiance (i really don't get this) was this not supposed to me our MUST have AOE heal that GC was so pumped about? Could someone explain?

Seal of Insight - Unleashing this Seal's energy now also restores 15% of the Paladin's base mana.

Okay this is great, we needed a fix somewhere.

Mastery: Illuminated Healing now only affects your direct healing spells, instead of all healing spells.

I don't know about this!

[OnlineSamantha]

It helps in Cataclysm now that our Judgement will give us 15% of our mana. Not sure whether it's base or not (source: front page).

[Fizzlebeard]

Haha, it seems that on the Beta, Paladins can't keep up tanks but do incredible raidhealing with Holy Radiance. What a turnaround. If this is true, putting a falloff zone on Radiance is a good fix, as is buffing our single target heals. Also, taking Mastery off our indirect heals (AKA, Radiance and LoD) might be a fix to their perceived incredible raidhealing by Holy Paladins (but can you make it roll now please? At least in combat, if you are scared about pre-shielding.).

The Insight buff is nice, actually giving us a reason to Judge, without making meleeing the boss overpowered.

Also, have you seen the Holy Paladins healing the Beta bosses on the frontpage? They are doing marvelous! The first movie is from a Paladin, and there is another movie with a healing meter shown.

[Rhoe]

# Seal of Insight - Unleashing this Seal's energy now also restores 15% of the Paladin's base mana.

With this change, DP probably won't get much use in combat. Well, not that I mind. WTB on live, though.

[Fizzlebeard]

With this change, DP probably won't get much use in combat. Well, not that I mind. WTB on live, though.

Whats base mana at 85? How much mana would a Judge give?

[Rathimis]

If they lowered the duration of Divine Plea from 15 seconds, to say 6 seconds, I think the 50% heal gimp would be just fine as is.

Its not only the 50% healing reduction that is problematic, but also that its 15 seconds that our heals are cut down. If the 50% reduction can't be let off on, then maybe the duration of the 50% reduction could be another area of a compromise

[Deleted]

sily question, but does haste affect the amount of ticks divine plea gives?

i doubt it does, just would be interesting if it did.

[Nekovivie]

sily question, but does haste affect the amount of ticks divine plea gives?

i doubt it does, just would be interesting if it did.

It's 15% (glyphed) of your maximum mana over 15 seconds. Haste wont change anything

[Possiblyreefer]

sily question, but does haste affect the amount of ticks divine plea gives?

i doubt it does, just would be interesting if it did.

Nope its a given % over x seconds. would be interesting if it did though