Raiders/casual players

[Moxal]

many people do raids for progression and get gear from it, why should someone whos not doing any progression get gear that looks just like it? once again this is a no brainer to me, you get your type of gear from heroics, just like pvpers get there gear from pvp, just like raiders get there gear from raids. why do you want to look like me so bad? you not raiding.
and as i said before, you have t9 is Ilvl 232, good enough to raid in icc with honestly, better than getting easy epics(notice i didnt say free) and just facerolling everything. you should wipe thats part of learning progression, if your already so geared that there is no wipes there really is no learning or incentive to be there other than more easy loot.

Set the most important sentence of this quote to bold.

My only response is that you are completely delusional. Really? REALLY? Your whole argument is based around not wanting people to LOOK like you?

Just a little tip, most people (except for role players, collectors, etc) wear gear for the stats, not necessarily the appearance.

[sicness]

many people do raids for progression and get gear from it, why should someone whos not doing any progression get gear that looks just like it? once again this is a no brainer to me, you get your type of gear from heroics, just like pvpers get there gear from pvp, just like raiders get there gear from raids. why do you want to look like me so bad? you not raiding.
and as i said before, you have t9 is Ilvl 232, good enough to raid in icc with honestly, better than getting easy epics(notice i didnt say free) and just facerolling everything. you should wipe thats part of learning progression, if your already so geared that there is no wipes there really is no learning or incentive to be there other than more easy loot.

Why shouldn't someone who does a heroic every day for 3 weeks not be able to get one piece of gear? You'd have a point if it didn't take 3-4 months of doing it to get the same gear that raiders get in less than a month. I get what you're trying to say, but the simple fact that they can at best get 23 badges a week makes it irrelevant because by the time they finally get a full tier 10 set the content is basically on farm for everyone. What makes it more irrelevant that they can do this is the fact that they're only getting the tier pieces and maybe a few minor off pieces. Rings, trinkets and weapons all have to be done via the raid in order to get equivalent gear, so no you can't simply just run heroics and be in the same gear, it's quite noticeable who is a raid geared up raider and a heroic geared up raider. You wanting to stand out more, which is all this is really about, is irrelevant and your obvious bias toward that is making you overlook the obvious.

[TehSklatt]

What's the problem with casuals getting raid gear many months after a release of a new tier again? You're trying to say that people outgeared ICC without stepping into the instance upon release and that is just plain false. There is no problem. 5 months after the release of ICC (which is the model you are bitching about) if casuals horded their emblems they MIGHT get a 251 set. Which is in no way outgearing an instance when it's relevant. Your argument is based upon lies and just plain fancy. OH NOES, THEY MIGHT GET DROPS IN VOA IF THEY ARE EXTREMELY LUCKY. Dang...isn't that kinda like raiding for gear?

No one was getting relevant gear from heroics for the raid tier when it was released. You're making this crap up.

honestly if your in voa get your drops booboo. thats a raid. and you say i lie, but im telling the truth that if you got a group of full t9 you could still down icc10, thats how its supposed to be done, when icc came out people went right into it with full toc gear and downed bosses
so in that theory taking away the current tier from heroics would not hinder anyone, it would just take away there advantage in progression

[Moxal]

the start of the expansion should take a little while to get gear, but i dont think you should be able to get t11 for heroics in any shape or form until t12 is released into live, then they can convert the t11 and all the heroics runners can get it and still raid with the big boys if they want, they just wont have as good as gear, it will still be decent tho.
sorry the flowchart was a little confusing but i dont have any issues with new 80s getting into current raids, as long as there not wearing the current gear from the time they hit 80, they should be locked at the previous tier of gear until they can raid enough to go current

Notice I said "viable alternative to start raiding with" from badges/points.

If it upsets you so much that its purple, let's just make it the same item level, but make it blue for good measure.

[Skronk]

if you aint got heroic 25 man gear, then your as casual as the rest of us dirty heroic/10 man running scrubs. If you do have heroic 25 man gear, then your trolling.

[TehSklatt]

Why shouldn't someone who does a heroic every day for 3 weeks not be able to get one piece of gear? You'd have a point if it didn't take 3-4 months of doing it to get the same gear that raiders get in less than a month. I get what you're trying to say, but the simple fact that they can at best get 23 badges a week makes it irrelevant because by the time they finally get a full tier 10 set the content is basically on farm for everyone. What makes it more irrelevant that they can do this is the fact that they're only getting the tier pieces and maybe a few minor off pieces. Rings, trinkets and weapons all have to be done via the raid in order to get equivalent gear, so no you can't simply just run heroics and be in the same gear, it's quite noticeable who is a raid geared up raider and a heroic geared up raider. You wanting to stand out more, which is all this is really about, is irrelevant and your obvious bias toward that is making you overlook the obvious.

because they are not raiding plain and simple, raid if u want raid gear, pug it up, but if your not gonna raid why do you feel entitled to the gear

---------- Post added 2010-10-25 at 11:12 PM ----------

Notice I said "viable alternative to start raiding with" from badges/points.

If it upsets you so much that its purple, let's just make it the same item level, but make it blue for good measure.

i dont care if they get epics, as long as it is nothing like the tier of the time, as it is right now, even though my gear is green(warlock 264), why do i have to wear the same skin as someone whos never seen icc25?
change the skin take off the set bonus and change the name, then put it up for sale in the heroics vender

[Thalruin]

honestly if your in voa get your drops booboo. thats a raid. and you say i lie, but im telling the truth that if you got a group of full t9 you could still down icc10, thats how its supposed to be done, when icc came out people went right into it with full toc gear and downed bosses

Again misdirecting and lying.

[sicness]

because they are not raiding plain and simple, raid if u want raid gear, pug it up, but if your not gonna raid why do you feel entitled to the gear

Yet again I'll point out that this is how blizzard wants it and nothing will change that. You need to just get over the fact that a person taking 3-4 months can get in NEAR equivalent gear to you and that you are no longer a special snow flake based on your gear alone.

BTW, this game isn't catered to how you like it, stop expecting it to have such high standards for obtaining decent gear.

[Deleted]

I have the same opinion as the OP. Why do you want raid gear when you're only running heroics? Why do you need raid gear when you're only running 5 mans?

Oh wait, that's right, you don't. Imo you need to actually raid to attain raid gear, even if it is from the lower tiers, I mean, why do you deserve raid gear if you barely did anything for it?
I have yet to see ONE good argument, ONE good answer to that question.
"It gets people into raiding easier" True, but Heroics are meant to be a gateway into raiding, not a rocket boost to the latest content. It worked in TBC, so why wouldn't it work now?
"People will feel left behind" Oh right, because everyone else will be doing end tier content? That's not true, big chance is that the majority will be doing the same content as yourself, unless you're a terrible player. And if you are a terrible player, please, go play something like bubbletown.
As I said, it worked in TBC, why wouldn't it work now?
"It makes gearing alt easier" Yes, ofcourse, the famous alt-argument, i say that is bollocks. Any decent guild does Alt-runs on offdays, and if you can't attend those, then don't make alts, solution is simple.

Running around in the same kit as EVERYBODY ELSE is not fun, believe me, people want to feel unique, and a simple recolor of the gear isn't going to do that. Raiders worked hard for their gear and thus should deserve to be different from the players that can't be bothered to raid.
Special achievements? Oh right, you see those ... not.
Mounts? Oh right, would you like to be forced to ride around on your Retarded Glitter Pony just to let others see you spend 25 bucks on it? No, I for example still prefer using my flight form as a druid or just my standard hippogryph, because I like those more than my frost wyrms.

And if you think this will support elitism, well it isn't going to be any worse than it is now, besides elitists are horrible players to play with. And Cataclysm will support guild play anyways, so why go with pugs? Pugs for all should die in my opinion, why play in an inefficient way?
"Because I can't have a schedule"
Well, there is 99% chance that there will be a guild that supports your playstyle, and if there isn't. You know what? You could make your own guild, 100% chance that there will be players that are in the same situation as yourself.

[TehSklatt]

I have the same opinion as the OP. Why do you want raid gear when you're only running heroics? Why do you need raid gear when you're only running 5 mans?

Oh wait, that's right, you don't. Imo you need to actually raid to attain raid gear, even if it is from the lower tiers, I mean, why do you deserve raid gear if you barely did anything for it?
I have yet to see ONE good argument, ONE good answer to that question.
"It gets people into raiding easier" True, but Heroics are meant to be a gateway into raiding, not a rocket boost to the latest content. It worked in TBC, so why wouldn't it work now?
"People will feel left behind" Oh right, because everyone else will be doing end tier content? That's not true, big chance is that the majority will be doing the same content as yourself, unless you're a terrible player. And if you are a terrible player, please, go play something like bubbletown.
As I said, it worked in TBC, why wouldn't it work now?
"It makes gearing alt easier" Yes, ofcourse, the famous alt-argument, i say that is bollocks. Any decent guild does Alt-runs on offdays, and if you can't attend those, then don't make alts, solution is simple.

Running around in the same kit as EVERYBODY ELSE is not fun, believe me, people want to feel unique, and a simple recolor of the gear isn't going to do that. Raiders worked hard for their gear and thus should deserve to be different from the players that can't be bothered to raid.
And if you think this will support elitism, well it isn't going to be any worse than it is now, besides elitists are horrible players to play with. And Cataclysm will support guild play anyways, so why go with pugs? Pugs for all should die in my opinion, why play in an inefficient way?
"Because I can't have a schedule"
Well, there is 99% chance that there will be a gild that supports your playstyle, and if there isn't. You know what? You could make your own guild, 100% chance that there will be players that are in the same situation as yourself.

i <3 you =P

[DeadNite]

You play this game for fun.
To get you to try different things they offer incentives. Don't exaggerate incentives with: "OH MY GOD, THIS IS SO AMAZING BECAUSE OF INCENTIVE X."
You should raid because you like to. If you JUST raid because of the E-Peen boost better gear gives you then your probably a dick. Note I said JUST.
If your having fun, good job...that is the point (Being a game and all).

About Gear: You notice the T10 sets are different colors depending on if you have 10.1, 10.2, or 10.3. This is your visual distinction and reward for working well with others to accomplish something difficult. While people who don't raid are able to get "Raid Sets" they will not be able to get the better versions of them by running dungeons.

Did you know that your hardcore raiding guilds used to complain about how ridiculous it was to gear newer guild members because of having to do all the previous content to get to the current. They were asking for a way to close the gap on gear levels, even if it was just to the previous tier of gear. Funny, now they just complain period.

TLR - People will always complain, have there own opinion on how things should work, and aways feel entitled to have something that others cannot.

[ccetsu]

Once again, heres a copy/paste of something I wrote on a prior topic regarding the same ignorant ramble as the OP delivered. Enjoy, or not...idc:

"I made an account just to say something that has been weighting heavy on me for months...

Why does everyone care what gear the person next to you has equipped? I obtain my gear as a means for seeking progression, that is all. Not to look or feel unique while hanging out in Dalaran. That's the point of obtaining gear, if someone who doesn't have the luxury of my raid schedule and/or opportunity to raid in the manner that I do wants 251 Tier gear awesome... doesn't ruin my experience or slow my progression any. It doesnt take away my 277 does it? NO. How can anyone really justify the argument that allowing casuals the opportunity to acquire tier gear or equivalent pieces ruins the game. It doesn't by any means. It allows people the opportunity to get better gear and perhaps eventually enter into raiding in a manner that suits there availability. People need to realize, color of gear doesn't matter... purples don't make the player. I would gladly take a green item if it better than what I have equipped just for the sake of what its for, increasing the ability to perform at optimum.
I say again, gear is for progression not looks or epeen. The progression itself is what boosts said epeen. Stop being concerned about what other people are doing and focus on your experience and your raid group, you may just find that is what opens doors into progression not LEET PURPLZ THaT LOOK COOL.

The ones screaming about how its the downfall of out WoW experience, if you were a mechanic in real life and someone told you that you could not purchase a $80,000 car due to the fact you would have to save 5 years for it but allows the Corporate Attorney to buy it just because he has the cash/credit to buy it now, how would you feel? In Soviet Russia gear wears you!?!"

[sicness]

You play this game for fun.
To get you to try different things they offer incentives. Don't exaggerate incentives with: "OH MY GOD, THIS IS SO AMAZING BECAUSE OF INCENTIVE X."
You should raid because you like to. If you JUST raid because of the E-Peen boost better gear gives you then your probably a dick. Note I said JUST.
If your having fun, good job...that is the point (Being a game and all).

About Gear: You notice the T10 sets are different colors depending on if you have 10.1, 10.2, or 10.3. This is your visual distinction and reward for working well with others to accomplish something difficult. While people who don't raid are able to get "Raid Sets" they will not be able to get the better versions of them by running dungeons.

Did you know that your hardcore raiding guilds used to complain about how ridiculous it was to gear newer guild members because of having to do all the previous content to get to the current. They were asking for a way to close the gap on gear levels, even if it was just to the previous tier of gear. Funny, now they just complain period.

TLR - People will always complain, have there own opinion on how things should work, and aways feel entitled to have something that others cannot.

This is exactly why the changes to the gearing system were made, not because people wanted gear so easily.

[Moxal]

I have the same opinion as the OP. Why do you want raid gear when you're only running heroics? Why do you need raid gear when you're only running 5 mans?

Oh wait, that's right, you don't. Imo you need to actually raid to attain raid gear, even if it is from the lower tiers, I mean, why do you deserve raid gear if you barely did anything for it?
I have yet to see ONE good argument, ONE good answer to that question.

Just an FYI, most people raid ~2-3 days a week, then do some heroics on off days to supplement the raiding.

In expansion tiers higher than release (4.1+) people need raid gear (comparable to the previous tier) from heroics to gear re-rolls, new members, alternate members, etc. As I said previously, no one wants to grind previous tiers of content for months on end just to gear new members whenever they join.

At release, yes, you are right, people do not need raid gear from heroics. They need raid viable gear, to segway them into raids and not be dead weight.

Edit: Notice I used the language of "comparable" and "raid viable." I said it this way because I could care less what it looks like. Heck make it all blue quality gear that is construction orange, I could care less. Just it needs to exist.

[eternalwhitemoon]

Are we done here? Can we please stop having these threads?

Hardcore vs. casual is what you make of it, nothing more and nothing less.

[TehSklatt]

The ones screaming about how its the downfall of out WoW experience, if you were a mechanic in real life and someone told you that you could not purchase a $80,000 car due to the fact you would have to save 5 years for it but allows the Corporate Attorney to buy it just because he has the cash/credit to buy it now, how would you feel? In Soviet Russia gear wears you!?!"

hey guy you just quoted RL this is a game discussion keep that crap out of here lol.
if you dont have the cash/credit you aint gonna get shit from a car dealership.
and since your not raiding why are you getting raid currency, its like giving that $80,000 car to the mechanic for 2k down when he has a 500 credit score

[angael]

well people can get 5/5 t10 without stepping foot in a raid, thats my issue, i just feel like the gap between raiders and regular players has dissipated

EDIT: im not saying my view is right or wrong, its just my view. im not here to argue really just wanted to see what they think. i guess i just miss bc, when you couldnt get any tier without raiding.

I believe that is blizzards attention to an extent. Casual players can get 3/5 teir armour in cataclysm (no helm/shoulders) so they can feel 'stronger' but they will have to raid if they want those shoulders/ helm

[Moxal]

I believe that is blizzards attention to an extent. Casual players can get 3/5 teir armour in cataclysm (no helm/shoulders) so they can feel 'stronger' but they will have to raid if they want those shoulders/ helm

People seem to be still mistakingly making the distinction that casual = non-raider. Casuals raid, casuals do hard modes. *GASP* Casuals have killed Heroic LK.

[TehSklatt]

I believe that is blizzards attention to an extent. Casual players can get 3/5 teir armour in cataclysm (no helm/shoulders) so they can feel 'stronger' but they will have to raid if they want those shoulders/ helm

thats a good step foward to me, and it is kinda news to me. ive heard rumors but until it comes out on a bluepost/live i dont really take any truth in the random crap i hear in trade.
if thats official thats awesome, and im pretty happy with that. mabey now some people will have an incentive to raid with will boost recruiting that everyone was complaining about.

[Moxal]

thats a good step foward to me, and it is kinda news to me. ive heard rumors but until it comes out on a bluepost/live i dont really take any truth in the random crap i hear in trade.
if thats official thats awesome, and im pretty happy with that. mabey now some people will have an incentive to raid with will boost recruiting that everyone was complaining about.

Look under Valor point rewards in this post:

http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...ysm-Epic-Stats

If you click on the vendor screenshot you will see 3 "Firelord" pieces with Valor point costs (from raids, daily heroics), and 2 with Raid Token costs.