Heroics are... well Heroics...

[zingbat]

Come Cataclysm, Blizzard has stepped up a bunch of the Dungeon boss fights, giving them 1 shot abilities, raid wipers, and overall making the encounters more challenging, fun and interesting.

If you run a normal non-heroic dungeon, granted you may wipe once here or there, but overall you should be able to clear the dungeon with little to no difficulty, assuming you are wearing gear that is within 1-2 levels of where you are.

When you go to a normal tier 1 raid, gear is usually not a big issue, as long as the majority of people are pretty decently geared (and I mean with only gear that can be obtained pre-raid), your raid will be able to clear a few bosses, and within a couple of weeks eventually clear the entire instance.

When you go to a heroic tier 1 raid, gear is usually very important. All the bosses are now tuned according to the fact that the majority of your raid will be dressed in gear that dropped from the instances non-heroic counterpart. The bosses are given additional raid wiping abilities, damage and health pools are increased, and we end up with a couple of extra adds, when the situation calls for it.

So, now that we understand the difference between a normal and heroic raid... let's apply that concept to the heroic dungeons, just as Blizzard has seemed to do with Cataclysm.

Heroics are now tuned to the fact that your entire group should be dressed in gear obtained from the highest difficulty previous to this (regular dungeons and level 84-85 group/dungeon quests). The bosses come with additional abilities, and are tuned to a smarter more efficient group, rather then a steamroll.

If the whole group is following the fight, interrupting as needed, getting out of the fire, you will realize that the fights are extremely easy and very little damage ends up getting dealt. In a lot of heroic boss fights, I have found myself as a healer starting to DPS. This 'mana' issue which everyone talks about, ceases to exist when the group plays smart.

For vanilla players (guilty), this will be an acceptable change to the game, since this is what we remember from back in the olden days... however for players that started playing in the Burning Crusade and after, it will be quite the change to put away your 1 spell AOE button, re-keybind your strafe keys, and start actually playing this game as intended.

Heroic Dungeons are Heroics raids... just do not require the same amount of people.. however the gear requirements and skill level are still in line. If you do not have the gear or skill level, normal dungeons are where you should be at.

/end ramble

tldr: Stop going on forums if you can't be bothered to read a thread.

[Grimbold21]

You mean for players that started playing with WotLK

[Triggatron]

Nice post Zingbat, I find myself agreeing with you. I can't wait to get in there and watch all the ragequits that are going to happen when newfags can't deal with a wipe or blowing CDs when needed instead of on CD.

[Netram]

You mean for players that started playing with WotLK

Sometimes I wish this forum had a reputation system so I could give people like you rep.

[Deleted]

BC did have some HC's that you just wanted to avoid!
And vanilla was'nt hard... The majority of the playerbase was still learning. Vanilla was more of a grind. If you had time, you'd get it eventually.

That being said, nice post, I agree with the rest. Being a vanilla player myself, I look forward to this change...

[Texar]

Nice post Zingbat, I find myself agreeing with you. I can't wait to get in there and watch all the ragequits that are going to happen when newfags can't deal with a wipe or blowing CDs when needed instead of on CD.

You wont be so happy when one of those 'newfags' is in your group, as your tank or healer and keeps getting killed..You'll be the one rage quitting friend.

[ItachiZaku]

I've been doing some of the BC dungeons for rep and achievements with some guildies and some of them, if you don't pay attention, can sneak up on you.

[mishiko]

100% agree, being another vanilla player (glad to see some still around) I am anxiously waiting to lul my way through Cataclysm. They warned the wrath babies with Heroic Halls of Reflection. You know how many people cannot even do it? How many people get that dungeon and just /leave? It's kind of funny. 8)

While I don't mind them making content for everyone and not just hard core raiders I am glad to see that they want to have people learn skillful play.

[Deleted]

You wont be so happy when one of those 'newfags' is in your group, as your tank or healer and keeps getting killed..You'll be the one rage quitting friend.

Dungeon finder is okay, it's a roll with dice. You get idiots sometimes.
Go do dungeons with your guild... problem solved Like in the old days...

[conscript]

For vanilla players (guilty), this will be an acceptable change to the game, since this is what we remember from back in the olden days... however for players that started playing in the Burning Crusade and after, it will be quite the change to put away your 1 spell AOE button, re-keybind your strafe keys, and start actually playing this game as intended.

Heroic Dungeons are Heroics raids... just do not require the same amount of people.. however the gear requirements and skill level are still in line. If you do not have the gear or skill level, normal dungeons are where you should be at.

This is the only part of your post I disagree with. Vanilla was NOT hard. Very few of the instance bosses or even raid bosses had complicated abilities or, in terms of instance bosses, abilities at all. People who say Vanilla was in any way difficult up until, Chrommie in BWL, are completely kidding themselves. The 5 mans were an absolute joke, the only difficult ones were difficult because they were tuned as 10/15 player mini raids. As far as the 5 man/mini raid bosses go, I think Valthalak, the UBRS summonable boss, was the only one that was difficult and was an enormous step up or every other boss I can remember. Most of the time you could hardly tell you pulled a boss in a 5 man because they were surrounded by trash and were just a glorified trash mob themselves.

BC instances were miles ahead of Vanilla in terms of difficulty, but mostly only because of a crippling dependence on CC classes or having a Paladin tank. You lacked those things and you faced a challenge.

The second thing I disagree with is your concept that Heroic 5 mans should be the equivalent to heroic raids when compared to their normal modes. That could not be farther from the truth. Heroic 5 mans are meant as a stepping stone in progression, they are not meant to be end game for people like heroic raids are. Heroic raid bosses should be mind meltingly difficult. Heroic 5 mans should have some semblance of difficulty, but they shouldn't be a massive step up over normal mode. A step up should exist, yes, but it should not be like the step up of heroic raids.

[Deleted]

I don't quite see the POINT of this thread...

You're saying heroics are harder again, you're saying bad players are going to have a hard time and that good players are going to have to stop facerolling and actually start using their heads again?

Why are you stating facts everyone already know? We've known this for months now, hell almost a year.

ALSO: I wanna throw in that Vanilla wasn't hard, it just took a long time to do things.

BC put demands on players, like needing a specific CC or class.

Wotlk just removed most demands and made things forgiving (not easy, forgiving).

Let's hope Cataclysm can finally bring a fun game whilst still keeping to the "Bring the player, not the class" mantra that Blizzard has immense problems with.

[allrightythen]

BC did have some HC's that you just wanted to avoid!
And vanilla was'nt hard... The majority of the playerbase was still learning. Vanilla was more of a grind. If you had time, you'd get it eventually.

That being said, nice post, I agree with the rest. Being a vanilla player myself, I look forward to this change...

meh, i enjoyed the heroics that people wanted to avoid...arcatraz, shattered halls, etc..were all fun, and i was a enhancement shaman that almost never died even when a group wiped cuz...kiting is hard derp.

if you wanted to avoid it you pugged too much, or had fail friends or you wanted to space out in a heroic which means your the fail (im not direclty insulting you, im just saying in general)

[Galbrei]

If the whole group is following the fight, interrupting as needed, getting out of the fire, you will realize that the fights are extremely easy and very little damage ends up getting dealt. In a lot of heroic boss fights, I have found myself as a healer starting to DPS. This 'mana' issue which everyone talks about, ceases to exist when the group plays smart.

Are you talking about WotLK heroics or Cata heroics? The diference is that in WotLK mana wasn't a problem in heroics, regardless if "the group plays smart" or not and the fights were easy even for steamrolls, even when WotLK was new.

Cata on the other hand is promising to be diferent. According to some videos I watched, even if you play smart, heroics won't be initially easy, but at least they will be "doable", the same can't be said for people that just faceroll over it, these are gonna meet a very umpleasent death.

[SkodLife]

For vanilla players (guilty), this will be an acceptable change to the game, since this is what we remember from back in the olden days... however for players that started playing in the Burning Crusade and after, it will be quite the change to put away your 1 spell AOE button, re-keybind your strafe keys, and start actually playing this game as intended.

What do you mean with "Burning Crusade and after"?

Please answer that.

[navai]

With the exclusion of "People who started playing BC and after" I agree with your post entirely Zingbat.

I for one, am very happy they reverting to a more BC approach in fact.

I do also see Conscripts point, though I think that in addition to what he said, the only reason people (with sense) believe that Vanilla was hard was due to the lack of knowledge available and the shocking gear itemisation. Anyone who thinks that Vanilla was in fact harder in terms of tuning is kidding themselves. If you were to tune all Vanilla bosses and give us the information we know now I can assure you that majority (not all granted) would be extremely easy

[Grimbold21]

Sometimes I wish this forum had a reputation system so I could give people like you rep.

Why thank you!

[Chareoss]

Come Cataclysm, Blizzard has stepped up a bunch of the Dungeon boss fights, giving them 1 shot abilities, raid wipers, and overall making the encounters more challenging, fun and interesting.

If you run a normal non-heroic dungeon, granted you may wipe once here or there, but overall you should be able to clear the dungeon with little to no difficulty, assuming you are wearing gear that is within 1-2 levels of where you are.

When you go to a normal tier 1 raid, gear is usually not a big issue, as long as the majority of people are pretty decently geared (and I mean with only gear that can be obtained pre-raid), your raid will be able to clear a few bosses, and within a couple of weeks eventually clear the entire instance.

When you go to a heroic tier 1 raid, gear is usually very important. All the bosses are now tuned according to the fact that the majority of your raid will be dressed in gear that dropped from the instances non-heroic counterpart. The bosses are given additional raid wiping abilities, damage and health pools are increased, and we end up with a couple of extra adds, when the situation calls for it.

So, now that we understand the difference between a normal and heroic raid... let's apply that concept to the heroic dungeons, just as Blizzard has seemed to do with Cataclysm.

Heroics are now tuned to the fact that your entire group should be dressed in gear obtained from the highest difficulty previous to this (regular dungeons and level 84-85 group/dungeon quests). The bosses come with additional abilities, and are tuned to a smarter more efficient group, rather then a steamroll.

If the whole group is following the fight, interrupting as needed, getting out of the fire, you will realize that the fights are extremely easy and very little damage ends up getting dealt. In a lot of heroic boss fights, I have found myself as a healer starting to DPS. This 'mana' issue which everyone talks about, ceases to exist when the group plays smart.

For vanilla players (guilty), this will be an acceptable change to the game, since this is what we remember from back in the olden days... however for players that started playing in the Burning Crusade and after, it will be quite the change to put away your 1 spell AOE button, re-keybind your strafe keys, and start actually playing this game as intended.

Heroic Dungeons are Heroics raids... just do not require the same amount of people.. however the gear requirements and skill level are still in line. If you do not have the gear or skill level, normal dungeons are where you should be at.

/end ramble

tldr: Stop going on forums if you can't be bothered to read a thread.

Are you saying that you believe heroics 5 mans to be harder then normal 10 man and 25 man raid instances? Because that would just be idiotic of Blizzard.

[Deleted]

People seem to love to bash Wotlk - and especially people who started playing during Wotlk.

I started playing during early vanilla. And hand to my heart, the game was absolute crap back then.

BC improved certain aspects of it but it was still not a very good game in my eyes. Yeah, I said it, and I stand for it.

Wotlk actually made the game fun to play for me. Because it became more of a pick-up-and-play game (with differences, you still need to invest a lot of time into leveling and raid-gearing your character). And before you say "omg noob learn2mmo", how often do you see the best players in your guild online?

I for one only see the very best players on the whole server online during their respective raid nights and the occasional half and hour for the daily (if even that, nowadays). And I can bet they're enjoying the fact that they have so much more free time over for other things.

[Deleted]

meh, i enjoyed the heroics that people wanted to avoid...arcatraz, shattered halls, etc..were all fun, and i was a enhancement shaman that almost never died even when a group wiped cuz...kiting is hard derp.

if you wanted to avoid it you pugged too much, or had fail friends or you wanted to space out in a heroic which means your the fail (im not direclty insulting you, im just saying in general)

Non taken
We avoided them, because at the time they were doable without getting a headache, you already had gear that was equal or better, and so they were just a waste of time.
Which really was a good thing about tbc contra vanilla. You could say hey, I'll get a similar item another way.
Goddamn I farmed UBRS for weeks for the Dal'Rend swords. There were no alternatives before my guild started farming MC...

[Aman08]

I came in 3 weeks prior to BC in Vanilla and didn't start doing dungeons or raids until BC and I can say the heroics in BC were anything but steamroll. Remember H. Shattered Halls? H. Magister's? H. Shadow Lab? I welcome the change and disdain all things Lich King. From the extremely easy and boring dungeons to the overcomplicated raid system, especially Trial of the Crusader with 4 different lock-outs.

I stopped playing back in April after I cleared ICC25 on my hunter and have just been hanging around on alts grinding heroics for enough gear to hit Cataclysm running on whatever toon I feel like playing at the time. I personally cannot wait for the progression-based raiding tiers of yesteryear and challenge of gearing up.