Agility and Prot/Ret (or plate in general)

[Eenami]

I'm confused about agility. I've seen people saying we no longer get anything from agility, but the in-game character sheet says that agility still increases crit strike chance. Does ret still gain crit from agility? I understand agility no longer gives armor, but does it still give dodge for a Prot paladin?

[Deleted]

Its not that agility is bad, its that AP disappeared from the agility gears

[Deleted]

Agility still gives you the same amount of crit as before the patch, so in that sense, agility hasn't become worse for us point for point. However, agility has now been merged with Attack Power on item budgets, meaning some classes now get +2 AP for each point of agility (Rogues, Shamans, Hunters, Druids) while others get nothing (Paladins, Warriors, Deathknights, cloth users).

So before the patch, wearing an agility item as retribution gave us both the crit from agility PLUS a huge chunk of AP, PLUS 2 other green stats (making them as good or better than plate items), while now we only get the crit from agility and 2 green stats. That's a gigantic loss of attack power compared the their strength counterparts. Add in the 5% strength bonus from wearing all plate gear, agility based items are a no-no for ret, unless it's several tiers ahead of your next best availible item.

[Hikari]

Agi no longer provides armor, so that's something for prot to consider when choosing enchants/gems.

[Gray_Matter]

Am I correct in saying that prot pallies are not going to be interested in http://www.wowhead.com/item=51916/frost-giants-cleaver any more because I have lost it twice to them now.

[boseguy22]

Am I correct in saying that prot pallies are not going to be interested in http://www.wowhead.com/item=51916/frost-giants-cleaver any more because I have lost it twice to them now.

The one place we still see attack power/spell power is on weapons. The AGI will no longer profide attack power or armor (assuming you lost this to a prot paly), so most the tanking benefits are gone. It might be decent for threat but in no way is it as valuable as it was before the patch.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

The one place we still see attack power/spell power is on weapons. The AGI will no longer profide attack power or armor (assuming you lost this to a prot paly), so most the tanking benefits are gone. It might be decent for threat but in no way is it as valuable as it was before the patch.

AGI never provided AP for Pallies.

[Parietis]

Am I correct in saying that prot pallies are not going to be interested in http://www.wowhead.com/item=51916/frost-giants-cleaver any more because I have lost it twice to them now.

As was said the Agility will be worth a lot less than before, but I think the point of taking a slow one-hander before is still the same now: a really big damage range relative to itemlevel, contributing to higher threat. I don't think anyone ever used it specifically for the armor via agility bonus before.

[Maenetus]

the armor from agility made agility better than dodge in terms of gemming and enchanting.
But the real reason agility is no longer a paladin stat is because strength is better than ever.

strength now gives tanks parry, making strength weapon always better than agility weapons for tanking. More avoidance, more AP, same secondary stat budget (and often itemized for tanks)

[Nillo]

1) strength now gives tanks parry, making strength weapon always better than agility weapons for tanking.
2) More avoidance, more AP, same secondary stat budget (and often itemized for tanks)

1) Which is a really minor amount
2) Agi is still better than str for avoidance so as long as your Agility weapon has at least 1 of +hit or +exp it's on about the same level of usefulness - add to this, that there are currently ZERO slow tanking weapons and Agility weapons will just be wayyyyyyyy better for tps at a minor survivability loss. (PS: There is no 277 tank weapon in ICC anyway only LK heroic drops a useful tanking weapon....)

[Rhozul]

On the other hand, I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that as Protection you want a slow DPS weapon for optimum threat. Has to do with the % conversions on Crusader Strike and Hammer of the Righteous, and I'm almost certain that Heroic Bloodvenom Blade is listed as one of the best tanking weapons now for threat.

[Deleted]

okay, i want to clear up some confusions in this thread:

1) the AGI meta is still quite good, unless you are just enough below the hit cap that you can benefit from a hit gem, AND you have at least 2 blue sockets with a +6 STR bonus each, i.e. in conjunction with a red socket.
2) there is a 277 tanking weapon in ICC, kisko: http://www.wowhead.com/item=50708, it's just a bit underwhelming in comparison to even the ICC10 weapons.
3) currently, the stats on a weapon don't matter that much, as long as it is a slow one (with slow, i mean +/- 2.6). this is because fast tanking weapons have lower weapon damage, which means your seals and half your strikes do much less damage. i believe the best weapon currently is one of the wrathful weapons, since they got a lot of STAM, 2.6 speed, a blue socket for extra STAM and a decent amount of AP (264 wrathful has 129 AP, compared to 271 mithrios with 56 STR (117.5 AP when converted including kings); 277 wrathful has 149 AP compared to 284 mithrios with 134 AP, but has 1 less STAM).
4) in addition, there are currently some wrathful items that can be a pretty big upgrade, depending on where you start. i believe honor currently converts at a rate of 1 honor per kill, meaning 70 kills (or even 10-12 heroic bosses when you got WG) for a 270 shield with 181 STAM and 7.6K armor. if you don't mind losing some avoidance stats compared to a true tanking shield, it might be beneficial for you. for a bit over 900 honor, you can get 264 boots with 181 STAM and a socket.

[Nillo]

2) there is a 277 tanking weapon in ICC, kisko: http://www.wowhead.com/item=50708, it's just a bit underwhelming in comparison to even the ICC10 weapons.
3) currently, the stats on a weapon don't matter that much, as long as it is a slow one (with slow, i mean +/- 2.6). this is because fast tanking weapons have lower weapon damage, which means your seals and half your strikes do much less damage. i believe the best weapon currently is one of the wrathful weapons, since they got a lot of STAM, 2.6 speed, a blue socket for extra STAM and a decent amount of AP (264 wrathful has 129 AP, compared to 271 mithrios with 56 STR (117.5 AP when converted including kings); 277 wrathful has 149 AP compared to 284 mithrios with 134 AP, but has 1 less STAM).
4) in addition, there are currently some wrathful items that can be a pretty big upgrade, depending on where you start. i believe honor currently converts at a rate of 1 honor per kill, meaning 70 kills (or even 10-12 heroic bosses when you got WG) for a 270 shield with 181 STAM and 7.6K armor. if you don't mind losing some avoidance stats compared to a true tanking shield, it might be beneficial for you. for a bit over 900 honor, you can get 264 boots with 181 STAM and a socket.

2) I think you're talking to me and yes I know, that this weapons exists, but it's so bad (abysmal stamina and even with the proc it isn't better than the 264 agi weapons) that it equals not having any 277 tanking weapons.
3) Gutbuster 264 has the same amount of stamina and better stats compared to the 277 pvp weapons (except for weapon dps due to itemlvl) so... no the PVP weapons aren't all that great. They are fairly easy to get though.
4) Most of the 270 pvp items are weaker than their 264 tank counterparts (27 stamina and 60 armor vs 117 avoidance ratings), but again they're easy to get.