No OH Sword/Axe/Mace from HC dungeons?

[Brett Skullcrack]

I just don't understand how you could ever defend the use of sub PERIOD right now when it is 5-10% behind. It is STUPID to allow anybody in your raids to use it as their spec the current way it is.

You will not wipe at a progression encounter because sub is theoretically 5-10% behind another spec, you wipe because you don't have the correct tactic sorted and practiced. The theorycrafted dps difference is the last thing you should be worrying about, the only question that matters is "can we beat this boss with this raid?" And for sub rogues, the answer is "yes".

I would bring a dedicated sub rogue who has played the spec for a long time, knows that it's inferior in theory but still keeps pushing as hard as he can in raids, rather than a FTOM spec swapper. I want a diversified roster for the very same reason I want a diversified investment portfolio; you cannot predict what Blizzard will throw at you next in terms of spec nerfs/buffs, gear changes and fight mechanics. I don't want to rely on FOTM speccers who don't play any spec perfectly and instead rely on the relative tuning advantage for their performance, I want to know that if in T12 Blizzard puts out a boss where sub can make the fight substantially easier I have a dedicated sub rogue that I can call on.

oh and being FOTM actually HELPS with guild progression not hurt it. Especially now that gear is flexible. The whole ICC thing was a very special case. In general playing the stronger dps spec helps your raid, at least I think that's the point of a dps class most of the time.

It's not a special case, it has happened over, and over, and over again through the raid tiers to various specs and classes.

[Morbash]

Only a noob would use a dagger OH.

^^ so wrong dude.

I hope you are joking because thats retarded. You would favor a piece of crap mastery over combat potency+poisons+sinister strike?

^^ correct. 1.4 dagger perfectly vaible OH for combat. In fact,I believe, at higher gear levels it is the only option due to the lack of OH swords/axes....and that combat mastery is crap, so fast OH for combat potency procs is still best.

[sabrelime]

You will not wipe at a progression encounter because sub is theoretically 5-10% behind another spec, you wipe because you don't have the correct tactic sorted and practiced. The theorycrafted dps difference is the last thing you should be worrying about, the only question that matters is "can we beat this boss with this raid?" And for sub rogues, the answer is "yes".

I would bring a dedicated sub rogue who has played the spec for a long time, knows that it's inferior in theory but still keeps pushing as hard as he can in raids, rather than a FTOM spec swapper. I want a diversified roster for the very same reason I want a diversified investment portfolio; you cannot predict what Blizzard will throw at you next in terms of spec nerfs/buffs, gear changes and fight mechanics. I don't want to rely on FOTM speccers who don't play any spec perfectly and instead rely on the relative tuning advantage for their performance, I want to know that if in T12 Blizzard puts out a boss where sub can make the fight substantially easier I have a dedicated sub rogue that I can call on.



It's not a special case, it has happened over, and over, and over again through the raid tiers to various specs and classes.

Your arguement IS BASED ON A FALSE PREMISE. That premise is that people who switch to the highest dps spec are generally sub-par players, AND EVEN IF THIS WAS TRUE(which you can neither confirm or deny), it would make no difference because if you cannot switch to other specs and play them just about as well as your main spec you have serious player/adaption problems.

I have done most of the fights already in this tier of content and you would be seriously crippling your raid on quite a few fights as sub and it make encounters much, much harder. Especially a fight like Chimeraron. It is in the best interest of everyone that you can play ever spec and that you switch to the highest dps spec whatever it is at whatever time.

[Bobbojonno]

But it doesn't compete. If you run Sub in progression content you're bad, sorry.

Hence the reason i said it needs a buff to mastery... factor in the 5% crit raid buff it gives + bleed dmg buff and ur not that far from cooking.... it will be a viable raiding spec, only after the buff to mastery and by very skilled players.

[ymirsson]

Uhh what? The difference between combat and mutilate's damage has been mathed out on EJ. I am not pulling the 1.5%-2% from nowhere.

somehow, the 4% damage debuff from Savage Combat got mixed up in the argument.
and towards the fotm side:i doubt that more then a handful of people posting here play in guild which emphasizes those last few % of extra performance. most people would gain more DPS if they played tighter, and maybe throttled their porn downloads whilst raiding.

[sabrelime]

Hence the reason i said it needs a buff to mastery... factor in the 5% crit raid buff it gives + bleed dmg buff and ur not that far from cooking.... it will be a viable raiding spec, only after the buff to mastery and by very skilled players.

The crit buff is in the realm of almost 100% having in any raid you are in, really. The bleed debuff is really the only one anymore then seems hard to get, but, that's what hunter pets are for. Also, while you don't have to hemo very often to keep up the debuff, that means you are still running sub, sub-optimally further lowering it's dps compared to the two other specs.

---------- Post added 2010-12-15 at 06:58 PM ----------

somehow, the 4% damage debuff from Savage Combat got mixed up in the argument.
and towards the fotm side:i doubt that more then a handful of people posting here play in guild which emphasizes those last few % of extra performance. most people would gain more DPS if they played tighter, and maybe throttled their porn downloads whilst raiding.

Well the problem is Mutilate isn't lolfaceroll anymore either, so it isn't a question of playing the easier spec anymore either. Combat's rotation has gone back to low rupture and using revealing strikes only constitutes 100dps! yes only 100dps, so missing it would get lost in the noise of things in the first place. If you choose to play mutilate you actually do have to play well to do the most dps with it. If you choose to play combat there is a good chance you won't have to try very hard to get the full dps out of it, besides that 100dps, so if people actually can't play both specs because they are bad they probably should go combat I guess.

[ymirsson]

i dont consider talking about choices for the stupid worthwhile.
and as i said: if you need those 2% (or whatever your personal difference between combat and mutilate might be), you shouldn't be asking.
and mutilate also is back to high rupture, plus CD management, i don't see any meaningful differences anymore, mutilate has envenom uptime, combat should sync bandit's guile and KSp

[sabrelime]

i dont consider talking about choices for the stupid worthwhile.
and as i said: if you need those 2% (or whatever your personal difference between combat and mutilate might be), you shouldn't be asking.
and mutilate also is back to high rupture, plus CD management, i don't see any meaningful differences anymore, mutilate has envenom uptime, combat should sync bandit's guile and KSp

Synching Killing spree with Bandit's guile is basically a no-skill CD line-up. I was only pointing that stuff out because one of the people in this fourm insists that people should play only one spec and should never switch to another because it's better because that makes you FOTM and all FOTMonthers suck. I pointed out a situation in when using combat over mutilate would be beneficial.

Mutilate having higher dps should matter in EVERY guild that is trying to kill any bosses right now, and it isn't just the top 100 doing that. With healers the way they are and ranged having to deal with a lot of the fight mechanics, it's very much up to melee to as much damage as possible. This is actually even more true in 10 man where I honestly think some of the fights like Cho'gall are harder tuned in 10 man then 25 man.

[Eatfreshsub]

Considering they got rid of weapon specialty's, having fast swords with agility on them is pointless. Rather than a sword/mace/fist, just grab a slow dagger.

[Deleted]

having fast swords with agility on them is pointless

Two fast swords has never been pointful

just grab a slow dagger.

And not this either, you'll want a fast dagger

[Brett Skullcrack]

Well the problem is Mutilate isn't lolfaceroll anymore either, so it isn't a question of playing the easier spec anymore either. Combat's rotation has gone back to low rupture and using revealing strikes only constitutes 100dps! yes only 100dps, so missing it would get lost in the noise of things in the first place. If you choose to play mutilate you actually do have to play well to do the most dps with it. If you choose to play combat there is a good chance you won't have to try very hard to get the full dps out of it, besides that 100dps, so if people actually can't play both specs because they are bad they probably should go combat I guess.

This is where your problem shows very clearly. That small dps difference between RvS/rupture/evis vs. evis-only is just one thing, there are many, many minor optimizations in all aspects of playing any class. Any rogue from progression guilds can pick any spec and do fine, but stacking all the small optimizations in your favor is what separates a great rogue from a FOTM-swapper.

I didn't just wake up one morning thinking the way I do, I've been doing this for a long time and I've seen many good FOTM-swappers and many great single-spec players of all classes. I've also seen the kinds of changes that occur in this game and their effect on raiding. There are people who only think very narrowly about the one boss they're fighting and the specific states of the classes at that time. These people advocate stacking the raid with over-powered classes and kicking out under-powered classes. What you fail to understand is that my main worry is not this boss, it's having a guild capable of beating bosses two tiers from now.

[Bobbojonno]

The crit buff is in the realm of almost 100% having in any raid you are in, really. The bleed debuff is really the only one anymore then seems hard to get, but, that's what hunter pets are for. Also, while you don't have to hemo very often to keep up the debuff, that means you are still running sub, sub-optimally further lowering it's dps compared to the two other specs.

ok im gonna say this for the third time and slowly... cos you only seem to read wot you want....M-A-S-T-E-R-Y I-N S-U-B N-E-E-D-S T-O B-E B-U-F-F-E-D.

Did you get it this time?

[sabrelime]

This is where your problem shows very clearly. That small dps difference between RvS/rupture/evis vs. evis-only is just one thing, there are many, many minor optimizations in all aspects of playing any class. Any rogue from progression guilds can pick any spec and do fine, but stacking all the small optimizations in your favor is what separates a great rogue from a FOTM-swapper.

I didn't just wake up one morning thinking the way I do, I've been doing this for a long time and I've seen many good FOTM-swappers and many great single-spec players of all classes. I've also seen the kinds of changes that occur in this game and their effect on raiding. There are people who only think very narrowly about the one boss they're fighting and the specific states of the classes at that time. These people advocate stacking the raid with over-powered classes and kicking out under-powered classes. What you fail to understand is that my main worry is not this boss, it's having a guild capable of beating bosses two tiers from now.

My problem? What exactly is my problem? Besides that, there aren't little optimization techniques for combat anymore. RvS plus rupture plus using Killing spree at the right time are the only things anymore. These are the only things! There are no other small things, especially since you shouldn't be combat on a fight where you have to target switch significantly. There isn't BF to throw in and engineering sucks as a profession. So anybody moving from one spec to another should already know how to play it as best as it can be. I only mentioned RvS because it is almost worth not using at all because of how little it contributes. It's an "optimization" that can easily be lost in the noise of everything else.

---------- Post added 2010-12-16 at 07:26 PM ----------

ok im gonna say this for the third time and slowly... cos you only seem to read wot you want....M-A-S-T-E-R-Y I-N S-U-B N-E-E-D-S T-O B-E B-U-F-F-E-D.

Did you get it this time?

Anything could be buffed in sub to make it more competitive.

[Ewokmywewok]

combat is for leveling, if you want to do good dps go mut

[Florena]

In a world where healer mana is finite, good dps can mean the healers don't have to last as long in a fight than they would if you had sub par dps. As much as I love sub, I'm going assassination as to not hold back my guild's raids just because I 'like' sub.

Particuraly in a 10 man where there are less dps to potentially carry you, a 10% dps difference between say assassination and sub is in fact significant.

I see the point of 'people who fotm spec swap all the time don't know any one spec as in depth as someone who plays only that.' But come on, it doesn't take much time to look at EJ's calcuations, re gem a few pieces, redo your reforging and pick a different mainhand weapon, unless you don't have one. From what I've seen the biggest differences between the rogue specs in pve are 1. which combo builder they use and 2. which finishers they prioritize. This too is not hard to learn. Sure there may be little tricks for each spec but it isn't that hard to swap over for rogues.


Now an enhance shamy going reto or a holy paly going prot, sure there's a potentially hard spec switch.

[sabrelime]

In a world where healer mana is finite, good dps can mean the healers don't have to last as long in a fight than they would if you had sub par dps. As much as I love sub, I'm going assassination as to not hold back my guild's raids just because I 'like' sub.

Particuraly in a 10 man where there are less dps to potentially carry you, a 10% dps difference between say assassination and sub is in fact significant.

I see the point of 'people who fotm spec swap all the time don't know any one spec as in depth as someone who plays only that.' But come on, it doesn't take much time to look at EJ's calcuations, re gem a few pieces, redo your reforging and pick a different mainhand weapon, unless you don't have one. From what I've seen the biggest differences between the rogue specs in pve are 1. which combo builder they use and 2. which finishers they prioritize. This too is not hard to learn. Sure there may be little tricks for each spec but it isn't that hard to swap over for rogues.


Now an enhance shamy going reto or a holy paly going prot, sure there's a potentially hard spec switch.

Exactly. Thank you.

[Brett Skullcrack]

Besides that, there aren't little optimization techniques for combat anymore. RvS plus rupture plus using Killing spree at the right time are the only things anymore. These are the only things!

You're just proving my point! You don't know about these techniques because you're not a specialized combat rogue! KS alone can give a combat rogue a huge advantage over a mutilate rogue in any fight with knock backs, loads of movement or fears.

[Bobbojonno]

Anything could be buffed in sub to make it more competitive.

Dont be silly... its the one thing that can be buffed without increasing the dmg of other specs.... dont just talk for the sake of talking...

[Brett Skullcrack]

In a world where healer mana is finite, good dps can mean the healers don't have to last as long in a fight than they would if you had sub par dps. As much as I love sub, I'm going assassination as to not hold back my guild's raids just because I 'like' sub.

It's not that simple. Healers don't lose mana over time, they lose mana when they heal. Making the fight shorter can often mean less healing overall, but not necessarily. If your problem is healers going oom the solution is not to try to increase your rdps, the solution is to change your tactics or have players use more self-heals. Sub in particular has tools to take less damage than other rogues and might very well turn out to do more damage per healing received than other specs. Increasing rdps is what you do when you're reliably hitting the enrage, not when you have healing problems.

So here's my question: If it was calculated that Sub gave more damage per point of healing received, would you swap? Or would you still go with whatever gave you the highest rank on the meters?

But come on, it doesn't take much time to look at EJ's calcuations, re gem a few pieces, redo your reforging and pick a different mainhand weapon, unless you don't have one. From what I've seen the biggest differences between the rogue specs in pve are 1. which combo builder they use and 2. which finishers they prioritize. This too is not hard to learn. Sure there may be little tricks for each spec but it isn't that hard to swap over for rogues.

Of course it's not hard to learn. Any rogue can swap specs and do fine, but you will not be able to match the performance of a specialized spec player. FOTM-swappers tend to be weaker players because they rely on the tuning advantage of the spec for their dps rather than skill and because they never learn the small things about specs that end up adding up to a big difference in the end.

[Blueguy]

I hope you are joking because thats retarded. You would favor a piece of crap mastery over combat potency+poisons+sinister strike?

The mastery is roughly 13-17% of my overall DPS done, + the poisons on each weapon. SS was never taken out of the equation, nor was combat potency. They all are used just as much as it would be with a fast OH. MG will also proc the +15 energy. So, in that sense... Slow OH = Fast OH if your mastery is high enough. A faster OH just leads to less over-all DPS. Look at the charts. Melee will be approximatly 65% of your DPS. Don't believe me? Go click your recount stats.