Death Knight Talent Tree short comings. 14/12/10

[Herald]

Let's face the hard fact of WoW right now: Blizzard knowingly released a product months too soon. As many, many players have realized already, their classes feel incomplete. They feel like they know what their class in intended to do, but it's not quite all there. The large part of this problem is the obviously rushed talent trees. I admit that Paladins are much further along than the other classes, but even they have odd spots that beg the question "Why would you do that, Blizzard?".

In this thread, I'll briefly cover Death Knight talent tree "short comings" or "disappointments".

*Note: I'm only listing things which I feel need addressing.

Blood

Talent Specializations

- Blood Rites: Whenever you hit with Death Strike or Obliterate, the Frost and Unholy Runes will become Death Runes when they activate. Death Runes count as a Blood, Frost or Unholy Rune.

Due more to a design flaw than a talent flaw, this is an ability that remains insignificant for 99% of all encounters. There is very little reason for a Death Knight to use those Death Runes to spam Heart Strike or Blood Boil as opposed to using Death Strike; even in AoE situations, Death Strike/Rune Strike/Heart Strike + Tab is more effective than spamming Blood Boil. Blizzard has made it clear that they have no qualms with the current Blood rotation (diseaseless with large Death Strike priority) and therefore need to make this specialization more applicable in many more combat scenarios or replace it with something else. This is one of those abilities which cause no harm to the player but also lack a definite, and useful, application.

Talents

- Butchery: Whenever you kill an enemy that grants experience or honor, you generate up to 20 runic power. In addition, you generate 2 runic power per 5 sec while in combat.

This is a leveling talent through and through, but it is not a useful leveling talent. The RP5 is unseen in battles while leveling and even more negligible in prolonged raid encounters wherein 2RP5 is meaningless next to 10RP every time you spend a rune. The 20 runic power generated isn't enough RP to grant you a free anything. If mobs are so far apart that you feel like you could really use a 20RP buffer to offset decay, then mobs are too far apart for it to make a difference. The truth of the matter is that Death Knights are not Warriors and Runic Power is not Rage. We have an alternate resource and always put the RP dump in the end of our rotations. This is a blatantly useless talent and what's worse is that it's in the first tier of the tree making offspecc'ing Blood a really foul option.

-Blood Caked Blade:Your auto attacks have a 30% chance to cause a Blood-Caked Strike, which hits for 25% weapon damage plus 12.5% for each of your diseases on the target.

The only thing that screams "Blood" about this talent is the name; it is, otherwise, completely misplaced. Remembering that Blizzard has no plans to change disease uptime for Blood, this talent deals half it's potential damage 30 seconds of every minute. It's gimped from the get go. What's more is that this is a talent with an effect that is greatly increased by haste, but it's too deep in the Blood Tree for any haste stacking Death Knight build to pick it up. This needs to be changed in effect (as in a completely different effect), moved or removed.

- Crimson Scourge: Increases the damage dealt by your Blood Boil by 40%, and when you Plague Strike a target that is already infected with your Blood Plague, there is a 100% chance that your next Blood Boil will consume no runes.

Again, we have an effect that is completely gimped by the way Blood manages diseases on a target. Admittedly, this is an effect targeted at AoE situations, but if a DK were to used diseases for AoE, they would likely only pick one to save a GCD and because Blood Boil bonus damage caps at one disease. If they had to choose between Blood Plague and Frost Fever, they're going to choose Frost Fever for the debuff. It naturally follows that Death Knights are never presented with a scenario in which they would clip their Blood Plague application. It is yet another unused effect.

- Dancing Rune Weapon: Summons a second rune weapon that fights on its own for 12 sec, doing the same attacks as the Death Knight but for 50% reduced damage. The rune weapon also assists in defense of its master, granting an additional 20% parry chance while active.

The problem with this talent is the RP cost. It's not that just that it's too high; it's that it's completely meaningless aside from the horrible ramp up time required. The additional threat granted by DRW + Glyph causes the Death Knight to generate only a tiny bit more threat over using the RP on Rune Strike. This would lead me to assume that Blizzard was keeping an eye on opportunity cost when they designed this ability; but it's still as pointless as spending 60 RP to instantly generate 60 RP. The result is that this ability really only grants your 20% Parry. Blizzard could easily remove the extra threat and the RP cost and make this a much more easily managed survival CD.


Frost

Talent Specializations

No issues here.

Talents

- Nerves of Cold Steel: Increases your chance to hit with one-handed melee weapons by 3% and increases the damage done by your off-hand weapon by 25%.

Blizzard has made it clear that the only spec which is intended to Dual Wield is Frost. So I ask: Why is this in the first and most accessible tier of Frost talents? Why is it not swapped with one of the three talents in the second tier (Lichborne, On a Pale Horse, Endless Winter) which are useful for every Death Knight spec? This is also a leading contributor to the unintended power of Dual Wield Unholy as well as responsible to many Death Knights trying to Dual Wield tank. It's a misplaced talent and it causes unnecessary confusion for some players.

- Hungering Cold: Purges the earth around the Death Knight of all heat. Enemies within 10 yards are trapped in ice, preventing them from performing any action for 10 sec and infecting them with Frost Fever. Enemies are considered Frozen, but any damage other than diseases will break the ice.

This has no reason to be linked with Howling Blast. This is a PvP talent and soloing talent. The CC application of Hungering Cold is too extremely limited to consider it reliable CC. It's so limited that I cannot think of a looser way to use the term "CC". This link with HB is nothing short of an open palm slap in the face from Blizzard devs hellbent of forcing "underused in WotLK" talents down player throats.

Unholy

Talent Specializations

- Mastery-Blightcaller:Increases the damage done by your diseases by 40%. Each point of Mastery increases disease damage by an additional 5.0%.

Diseases make up such a small percent of overall damage on a single target that this Mastery can be considered nothing more than "doesn't hurt to have". When an entire community of players thinks your new spec-specific and unique mechanic is so underwhelming they'd rather have more crit, it's safe to say that you did a lackluster job and should be entertaining the idea of a redesign.

Talents

*Note: The first two tiers of the Unholy talent tree is comprised of PvP only talents and talents which should be made baseline (with the exception of Morbidity) and so, I will be addressing the problem in a slightly different format.

- Unholy Command: Reduces the cooldown of your Death Grip ability by 10 sec, and gives you a 100% chance to refresh its cooldown when dealing a killing blow to a target that grants experience or honor.
- Desecration: Your Plague Strikes and Scourge Strikes defile the ground within 7 yards of your target. Enemies in the area are slowed by 50% while standing on the unholy ground. Lasts 20 sec.
- Resilient Infection: When your diseases are dispelled by an enemy, you have a 100% chance to activate a Frost rune if Frost Fever was removed, or an Unholy rune if Blood Plague was removed.

Now, there is zero problem with putting PvP only talents as optional point dumps. There is, however, a huge problem with stacking them high in the first two tiers of a talent tree to the effect that every Unholy spec must choose one of these abilities to place a point in so that the player can progress down the tree. This is horrible, horrible tree design.

Virulence - Increases your chance to hit with your spells by 9%. Spells are all Death Knight abilities that are not direct weapon strikes.

Here we have a talent that provides a necessary hit buff for Frost and Unholy DPS. However, it is bad design to require that talent points be spent for Death Knights to reach spell hit cap necessary for maximizing their DPS while at the same time providing a free 9% spell hit to both the Prot and Ret Paladin specs. This is just passive stats that the other Melee/Spell class gets for free.

Epidemic - Increases the duration of Blood Plague and Frost Fever by 12 sec.

Talk about your outdated talents. There is very little incentive for any of the specs to want this talent. Unholy can easily close the 30 second gap between disease duration and Outbreak CD with Festering Strike and Frost only has two rotational abilities which benefit from Blood Plague (Blood Strike and Obliterate); if the DK has Glyph of Howling Blast, they needn't worry about keeping Frost Fever up. Frost is the only spec that really benefits from this talent. Blood, as you well know, is diseaseless in rotation. Both Epidemic and Virulence are abilities which should be talent specializations.

Another glaring fault of the Unholy tree is the amount of useful talents packed into the last four tiers. A talent like Improved Anti Magic Shell (which is useful for all three specs) can be higher up in the tree and still be linked to Anti-Magic Zone. The entire Unholy tree lacks consistent coherency.


These are the faults of the Death Knight talent trees as I see them. Feel free to disagree.

[Herald]

This is a post based on my experience. Truth be told, most of what I say here is backed by worldoflogs and requires a lot of reading between the lines. Most of it is backed by common sense as it pertains to balance. Most is backed by common sense in the idea that something needs to make sense.

If you disagree, fine; but stop trying to make personal attacks against me and/or derail this thread.

[Herald]

dk is ok = stop crying -> learn to play

Read the wall of text. This thread has nothing to do with class performance. It simply exposes the shoddy nature of Cataclysm.

If your trying to expose the "shoddy" nature of Cataclysm I would suggest you refrain from making posts such as this in the future. This post details your opinions of the DK class. The DK class is a very small portion of Cataclysm. This thread has less to do with class performance but more with ideal class design. ~Nangz

[zito]

- Blood Rites: Whenever you hit with Death Strike or Obliterate, the Frost and Unholy Runes will become Death Runes when they activate. Death Runes count as a Blood, Frost or Unholy Rune.

Due more to a design flaw than a talent flaw, this is an ability that remains insignificant for 99% of all encounters. There is very little reason for a Death Knight to use those Death Runes to spam Heart Strike or Blood Boil as opposed to using Death Strike; even in AoE situations, Death Strike/Rune Strike/Heart Strike + Tab is more effective than spamming Blood Boil. Blizzard has made it clear that they have no qualms with the current Blood rotation (diseaseless with large Death Strike priority) and therefore need to make this specialization more applicable in many more combat scenarios or replace it with something else. This is one of those abilities which cause no harm to the player but also lack a definite, and useful, application.

There is a choice, do I want to use death runes on blood strike for more aoe threat? Or do I need to deathstrike to save my hide. The decision becomes between more threat or more mitigration. Bosses and trash mobs have abilites that can drop your threat so deathstrike would most likely not be the choice to use for picking threat back up. Also you might accidentally pull another mob group or pull some pats. Would I deathstrike in that situation? No I would death and decay, blood boil or heart strike. It is all about choice.

- Butchery: Whenever you kill an enemy that grants experience or honor, you generate up to 20 runic power. In addition, you generate 2 runic power per 5 sec while in combat.

This is a leveling talent through and through, but it is not a useful leveling talent. The RP5 is unseen in battles while leveling and even more negligible in prolonged raid encounters wherein 2RP5 is meaningless next to 10RP every time you spend a rune. The 20 runic power generated isn't enough RP to grant you a free anything. If mobs are so far apart that you feel like you could really use a 20RP buffer to offset decay, then mobs are too far apart for it to make a difference. The truth of the matter is that Death Knights are not Warriors and Runic Power is not Rage. We have an alternate resource and always put the RP dump in the end of our rotations. This is a blatantly useless talent and what's worse is that it's in the first tier of the tree making offspecc'ing Blood a really foul option.

In BG's butchery can be very promising for unholy or frost, the extra RP from kills (which happens a lot in bg's) can generate more frost strikes or more death coils which are hard hitting abilities and high in priority.

- Crimson Scourge: Increases the damage dealt by your Blood Boil by 40%, and when you Plague Strike a target that is already infected with your Blood Plague, there is a 100% chance that your next Blood Boil will consume no runes.

Again, we have an effect that is completely gimped by the way Blood manages diseases on a target. Admittedly, this is an effect targeted at AoE situations, but if a DK were to used diseases for AoE, they would likely only pick one to save a GCD and because Blood Boil bonus damage caps at one disease. If they had to choose between Blood Plague and Frost Fever, they're going to choose Frost Fever for the debuff. It naturally follows that Death Knights are never presented with a scenario in which they would clip their Blood Plague application. It is yet another unused effect.

This is another choice, do you need extra threat (PS + blood boil) or do you need extra mitigration (FF debuff) or is there another person in the group that can apply the FF debuff like a druid? It is all choice and how you spend it.

- Dancing Rune Weapon: Summons a second rune weapon that fights on its own for 12 sec, doing the same attacks as the Death Knight but for 50% reduced damage. The rune weapon also assists in defense of its master, granting an additional 20% parry chance while active.

The problem with this talent is the RP cost. It's not that just that it's too high; it's that it's completely meaningless aside from the horrible ramp up time required. The additional threat granted by DRW + Glyph causes the Death Knight to generate only a tiny bit more threat over using the RP on Rune Strike. This would lead me to assume that Blizzard was keeping an eye on opportunity cost when they designed this ability; but it's still as pointless as spending 60 RP to instantly generate 60 RP. The result is that this ability really only grants your 20% Parry. Blizzard could easily remove the extra threat and the RP cost and make this a much more easily managed survival CD.

Another choice moment, do you want rune strikes for extra threat or do you need a survival cooldown? Combined with the glyph it becomes both, not as much as 3 rune strikes but you get 20% parry ontop of the extra threat DRW provides.

Frost



Talents

- Hungering Cold: Purges the earth around the Death Knight of all heat. Enemies within 10 yards are trapped in ice, preventing them from performing any action for 10 sec and infecting them with Frost Fever. Enemies are considered Frozen, but any damage other than diseases will break the ice.

This has no reason to be linked with Howling Blast. This is a PvP talent and soloing talent. The CC application of Hungering Cold is too extremely limited to consider it reliable CC. It's so limited that I cannot think of a looser way to use the term "CC". This link with HB is nothing short of an open palm slap in the face from Blizzard devs hellbent of forcing "underused in WotLK" talents down player throats.

So much wrong in this quote I don't even have to point it out.

Your post contains good discussion but this part is pointless. Don't include this in the future. If you disagree with something point it out but don't rely on others to see their own mistakes if you are the one claiming it is a mistake. Edit for discussion if you wish. ~Nangz

- Mastery-Blightcaller:Increases the damage done by your diseases by 40%. Each point of Mastery increases disease damage by an additional 5.0%.

Diseases make up such a small percent of overall damage on a single target that this Mastery can be considered nothing more than "doesn't hurt to have". When an entire community of players thinks your new spec-specific and unique mechanic is so underwhelming they'd rather have more crit, it's safe to say that you did a lackluster job and should be entertaining the idea of a redesign.

Mastery for some classes plain right suck, because mastery is a stat and should be prioritized like every other stat. They can't make mastery SUPER FABULOUS for every spec or else people would stack it. Think of it this way, would you rather have 40% extra disease damage passively or would you rather still have it in talent form?

---------- Post added 2010-12-15 at 05:17 AM ----------

You degraded my entire post by acknowledging it as no more than QQ. You accused me of trolling.

Anyone with half a brain can see that this is not a QQ thread. It's not even a numbers thread. It's a "Blizzard did a sloppy job because they rushed out Cata" thread; and it's done well.

You think blizzard rushed it and makes it sloppy, not everyone thinks that and its not true. Making this a QQ thread about how you don't like the trees because you think its sloppy.

[Khiva]

I can read perfectly fine, its basically a QQ post about your thoughts about some talents that you don't like or the position of the talents. And when someone disagrees with your opinions with their opinions you don't contribute anything except trying to troll.

The only thing I agree with you is about BCB however I don't agree with everything else you said because you have no valid proof or reason.

My god, a post giving personal opinions? What was he thinking!
By the way, aside from the AMS talent I agree with pretty much everything he said, and I've read these same insights from many other people.

[Deleted]

Funny how people bash him.. if you would think properly he's actually right in some cases.
There doesn't have to be "proof" for something to be a fact.

[Herald]

zito, your analysis shows very little understanding of the DK class and of the current trends popping up in raids for both tanks and DPS. I dated this in the thread title for a reason.

[zito]

zito, your analysis shows very little understanding of the DK class and of the current trends popping up in raids for both tanks and DPS.

Oh really? I am sorry about thinking about choosing what I spend on death runes or how I can generate more RP in pvp. Or including some CC's or snares for my dungeon group as unholy.

My bad

[Herald]

Oh really? I am sorry about thinking about choosing what I spend on death runes or how I can generate more RP in pvp. Or including some CC's or snares for my dungeon group as unholy.

My bad

Your talk assumes ideal gameplay which assumes perfect performance from all group members involved. I'm more realistic and base things off of ingame experience and actual happenings in raid.

Lots of things look good paper, doesn't mean they always are.

[zito]

Your talk assumes ideal gameplay which assumes perfect performance from all group members involved. I'm more realistic and base things off of ingame experience and actual happenings in raid.

Lots of things look good paper, doesn't mean they always are.

What makes you think I was talking about perfect performance from group members? I was providing examples of what you can do with each talents. Extra snares and CC doesnt hurt in groups if people break them oh well it happens but not 100% of the time. You expect everything to be picture perfect and these talents should never be picked up in pve because you dont find uses for them.

[Muraza]

Unholy tree is getting shafted by them bottlenecking those 2 PvP talents into the 2nd tier. Mastery I agree is also pretty weak, it shouldve been something along the lines of increasing the disease damage bonus from your strikes by x%. Frost tree I think is fine from personal experience, and the blood tree I have not messed with.

[zito]

In this case it does. My opinions are based off of my gameplay experience and it is extensive. I'm sorry you have an unfounded personal vendetta against me, but I suggest you ignore it and preserve what little respect you have left.

I don't have a vendetta on you, and no your personal opinion does not equal reality. Because my gameplay experience counters yours. Its your opinion which is not fact for everyone and the same goes to me.

[Herald]

I don't have a vendetta on you, and no your personal opinion does not equal reality. I don't know why you would think so.

Yes it does. I am a primary witness to the new content. I am a primary witness to how this class is functioning. My opinions, inferences and assertions do indeed = the reality of the game from a PvE and PvP perspective. Everything known about this game is based off player experience. To disregard my experience as insignificant is foolish, ignorant and arrogant.

[zito]

Yes it does. I am a primary witness to the new content. I am a primary witness to how this class is functioning. My opinions, inferences and assertions do indeed = the reality of the game from a PvE and PvP perspective. Everything known about this game is based off player experience. To disregard my experience as insignificant is foolish, ignorant and arrogant.

Yes and I am a primary witness also to the new content, I have played the deathknight class and I witness how the class is functioning but we both have differnt views and experiences on some talents and moves. Meaning your opinion is not fact because its called an opinion not fact. I never said your experiences were insignificant I just had different experiences taht don't add up to your "facts". If anyone is being ignorant its you for not taking into account others experiences that can differ from yours.

[Herald]

Yes and I am a primary witness also to the new content, I have played the deathknight class and I witness how the class is functioning but we both have differnt views and experiences on some talents and moves. Meaning your opinion is not fact because its called an opinion not fact.

It seems you'll be quite surprised to hear what other DKs think of my findings.

[Deleted]

Unholy tree is getting shafted by them bottlenecking those 2 PvP talents into the 2nd tier.

I would hardly go as far as saying the Unholy tree is getting shafted by our choices in the first 2 tiers. Would it be nicer if virulence was baseline or if we didn't have to put a point in desecration, unholy command or resilient infection when playing PvE? Yes of course it would but the fact we have to put points there doesn't actually prevent us from getting any of the other talents in the tree that we need. We're not stuck in a situation where having to put points in virulence or a primarily PvP talent is preventing an unholy DK who's solely interested in PvE from obtaining all the talents they need to effectively play their class.

[zito]

It seems you'll be quite surprised to hear what other DKs think of my findings.

And you would be quite suprised to see how many people have expereinced my findings.

What is your point? That your right because what you and some others experienced about the death knight class? If everyone and I mean everyone had your experiences then your opnion would be fact but you will find many people disagreeing and agreeing with you. So at this point you are just contridicting yourself. Originally you stated feel free to disagree with me so I did and you say I am wrong even though I have had different experiences then you do and now that everything you said is fact when its not.

[Herald]

And you would be quite suprised to see how many people have expereinced my findings.

What is your point? That your right because what you and some others experienced about the death knight class? If everyone and I mean everyone had your experiences then your opnion would be fact but you will find many people disagreeing and agreeing with you. So at this point you are just contridicting yourself. Originally you stated feel free to disagree with me so I did and you say I am wrong even though I have had different experiences then you do and now that everything you said is fact when its not.

It seems your point is to repeat everything back at me as if it hold more validity because you said it. However, only one of us bothered to type testable and logged explanations as to why the things we say are true.

[zito]

It seems your point is to repeat everything back at me as if it hold more validity because you said it. However, only one of us bothered to type testable and logged explanations as to why the things we say are true.

I repeat things back to you because you completely ignore them and you don't think about them except you try and think of a way to say "im right". You also didn't log anything you just stated your experiences like I stated my experiences.

[Unknown12345]

Wow I hope this thread ends soon. Its full of people thinking their opinions are fact and emo kids. Can we get a moderator to just get rid of it?

EDIT: @ Herald

I did read your wall of text. I play a DK as my "main alt" and disagree with most of what you said and I agree with mostly what Zito has said. In before you attack me for something.

Not getting rid of it. Sorry, this thread can have discussion. I'm fixing it. ~Nangz