Garrosh getting less credit than he deserves?

[Vasti]

ppl just need to forget about garrosh, enough with the threads alrdy, either u love him or ahte him, I hate him, but enough is enough, focus more on important aspects and suggestions.............. such as to update tyrande's model! :P

[Manito]

Thrall is and always will be the BEST character in all of Warcraft lore. Most people are buttsore because Thrall is not in charge of the horde anymore. I do agree with you however. Garrosh has a lot of pride and honor. Too much pride some might say. This is mostly due to the fact that he is so young however. He didn't even believe in himself or his family line until he met Thrall in Nagrand. After Thrall told him about how great Grom was it kind of gave him a huge pride boost and all the pride he didn't have came rushing in. He will be a good leader for the horde though.

[Epic Taco]

The whole "orc" argument is part of the problem, really. Everything Thrall does, despite being raised by humans, resonates with how orcish culture SHOULD be, how it actually was.

I just wanted to point out that Thrall’s way of leading, while noble, wasn’t the same as how the orcs used to be Pre-Blood Curse.

One of the biggest things, if not THE biggest thing, Thrall was about was making peace with the enemy. Did the Draenor orcs attempt to make peace with the gronn? Or the ogres? Definitely not, they fought them with a fiery passion for generations.

The biggest reason the orcs didn’t fight with the draenei, at first, was because they were peaceful and civil with each other. But when Ner’zhul told the orcs that the draenei were going to betray them and start a war, did the orcs attempt to make preemptive peace? Nope. They grabbed their weapons and charged straight in. Again, this is Pre-Blood Curse.

The Draenor orcs may not have been savages, but they certainly didn’t try to make peace with people who they knew/believed to wish them harm. Hell, they still feel that way, just do some Mag’har quests in Nagrand. That’s the mentality Garrosh grew up with.

The emphasis on martial prowess that Garrosh stresses is a relic of orc culture that was distorted by dark dealings. For all his rejection of daddy, he's continuing all the things he did wrong and more. He's more like Blackhand than Doomhammer.

Actually, that's debatable. Blackhand was a genuinely warmongering, killing draenei/humans just to kill them and show his dominance. Doomhammer may have done some questionable things as well, but it wasn't for the sake of his own ego. It was for his peoples' survival.

Now here we are, some 20 years later, and Azeroth has had it's day ruined by Deathwing. Survival once again is more important than alliances and truces, and Garrosh, while preforming questionable acts, is doing what he can to ensure that the orcs, and the Horde, survive.

[Kagari]

At first i hated Garrosh. Then I began playing a troll druid when the shattering hit in which time i had two separate interactions with my warchief. On both occasions he threatened to murder me. The first time by beheading, after which he would display my head on a pike. The second time by throwing me off the top of a mesa. I took this to mean that he likes me and that we are good friends, because you see, Garrosh loves to murder. He really wanted to murder me. Reeeeeeally bad. But he didnt. Even though thats kinda his thing. This must mean that we are great friends. After this second interaction with my new best buddy i realized that i loved him. Garrosh is awesome.

[RobbyJM]

Garrosh has done a lot of things that makes him better in the game. In Ashenvale, there's an orc that starts using fel energies again. You do that quest chain and then you have to report to Garrosh. He was just going to kill you outright until you bring the head of the one who did that to you and the orc.

Also, in Stonetalon, you did HEINOUS things that warranted it. You killed innocents, killed children, killed things just to kill them, used voodoo, used a whip to control kobolds, being a dishonorable shit the entire time. Garrosh comes and does his honor speech because you and the Overlord were disgracing everything it ment to be in the Horde.

It's not a ploy for "LOVE ME I'M HONORABLE", it's a ploy for "You did heinous shit like I almost did, now die."
Get your head out of your Garrosh-hating asses people.

[Deleted]

Here's the problem:

Yes, Garrosh has "improved" in the literal sense. But he's improved in the most jarring and unrealistic fashion possible. It almost feels like they made him pull a complete personality 180 to try and dampen the negative reaction towards him.

The fact that we originally had a leak from Boub that Cairne would be flat-out killed by Garrosh, but then it ended up that it was actually due to Magatha's poison screams "writing decision changed after the fact." It almost feels like they deliberately softened up much more harsh and dark plans for the character because the fan reaction was so negative, so this improved "honor" of Garrosh's just seems so completely inauthentic and contrived.

We don't really get the sense that Garrosh learned anything to lead in to this major character change. We just have "I learned from Saurfang, take my word for it." But even when you remove that, his actions in The Shattering and "Heart of War" are just wildly inconsistent from what we've seen previously.

For example: in the comic, Saurfang observed that Garrosh was already getting ready to usurp Thrall's rule before the Lich King ever attacked. He was very aggressive and rude towards Thrall all the time both before and during Wrath of the Lich King.

But then when you read "Heart of War," they try to play it up that Garrosh was just acting how he thought was best, and that he truthfully respects Thrall. Apparently the time he tried to fight him in a mak'gora was just to try and get him to act, but as I already said, they established previously that he wanted to take control all along and then they quickly dropped that plot point. After Nagrand, we NEVER see Garrosh treat Thrall with any respect. It almost feels like this respect was tacked on later solely to try and get more people to like him.

"Hey, people like Thrall. So if Garrosh likes Thrall, maybe people will like him!"

That's why Garrosh gets no credit, at least from me. He's a mess of a character. The continuity and consistency surrounding him is an unpleasant vortex of shit that can't be fixed. He upstages characters that have been in this franchise for 8+ years and they're all sucked into his black hole of nonsense.

Seriously. Vol'jin, Rexxar, Varok Saurfang, Baine, Garona...

These are characters who have had very little to no development or screen-time since several games back. Cataclysm could've been their time to shine and do some great things, get some character development, maybe go into a leadership role. Even characters who have screen time in Cataclysm like Baine or Vol'jin are shaped purely by how they interact with Garrosh - they don't stand on their own. After Vol'jin argues with Garrosh, he goes back to doing nothing while Garrosh flings people off cliffs and 12 year olds call him a BAMF in their ignorance.

But nope! We have to continue putting up with this obnoxious brown turd purely because Metzen can't let go of his big masturbation fantasy regarding Grom's sacrifice. We get it, Chris. Grom did some great stuff. But you gotta let that emotional punchline die already.

Which leads us to Cataclysm, in which he continues doing a bunch of stuff that screams "THE WRITERS WANT YOU TO LOVE ME." WHOA, I THREW A TOTAL JERK OFF A CLIFF. AREN'T I SO AWESOME? DON'T YOU JUST LOVE ME?

No, we don't. Go away. There's dozens of characters who have existed infinitely longer than you that are far better choices for Warchief, and the only reason Thrall didn't pick them was "well, apparently there's a bunch of young orcs that want a war hero, except this is the first time that plot point has come up and it came clear out of nowhere." I understand Cataclysm is supposed to be darker, but it shouldn't be darker at the expense of intelligent writing.

This is a beautiful post. *gives giant cookie*

[Kagari]

Has it occurred to anyone that the Cataclysm story line has just begun? Some of you act like Garrosh as warchief is the end of the world. Maybe he will die. Maybe he is still figuring out how to lead and his story will be accepted by the end of the expansion. Maybe one of the older characters will step into the spotlight as the story continues. Who knows? This expansion just came out. There is still a lot of the story to be told. Chill.

[Paladinwtf]

At first i hated Garrosh. Then I began playing a troll druid when the shattering hit in which time i had two separate interactions with my warchief. On both occasions he threatened to murder me. The first time by beheading, after which he would display my head on a pike. The second time by throwing me off the top of a mesa. I took this to mean that he likes me and that we are good friends, because you see, Garrosh loves to murder. He really wanted to murder me. Reeeeeeally bad. But he didnt. Even though thats kinda his thing. This must mean that we are great friends. After this second interaction with my new best buddy i realized that i loved him. Garrosh is awesome.

Hahaha, at first I was going to quote the post from Grimmer because it's the best one, but this one made me laugh, a lot.

[Lord Kristivas]

Garrosh has done a lot of things that makes him better in the game. In Ashenvale, there's an orc that starts using fel energies again. You do that quest chain and then you have to report to Garrosh. He was just going to kill you outright until you bring the head of the one who did that to you and the orc.

Also, in Stonetalon, you did HEINOUS things that warranted it. You killed innocents, killed children, killed things just to kill them, used voodoo, used a whip to control kobolds, being a dishonorable shit the entire time. Garrosh comes and does his honor speech because you and the Overlord were disgracing everything it ment to be in the Horde.

It's not a ploy for "LOVE ME I'M HONORABLE", it's a ploy for "You did heinous shit like I almost did, now die."
Get your head out of your Garrosh-hating asses people.

^This.

I've posted in so many of these threads. I actually thought people doing the quests would help to see why Garrosh changed. I never expected anyone to like him that didn't already. It's the "the character has no reason to hate alliance" "the character is poorly written" that I always thought was unfounded. The proof is in the quests and the content.

[Jiraden]

I like Garrosh.

He looks badass.

He acts badass.

He is badass.

Yeah, I like Thrall too, he's also badass, but in a different way. I think Garrosh's demeanor blends perfectly with the current events taking place in Azeroth. As was stated before, our number one focus is currently survival, and although Garrosh has a sort of brutish way of getting things done, he does.

[Margret]

I really like Garrosh, sure he's a douche but he's a good contrast to Thrall (who is freaken epic!)

I liked him even more after reading 'The Shattering' recently tbh :P

[Grimmer]

Garrosh has done a lot of things that makes him better in the game. In Ashenvale, there's an orc that starts using fel energies again. You do that quest chain and then you have to report to Garrosh. He was just going to kill you outright until you bring the head of the one who did that to you and the orc.

Also, in Stonetalon, you did HEINOUS things that warranted it. You killed innocents, killed children, killed things just to kill them, used voodoo, used a whip to control kobolds, being a dishonorable shit the entire time. Garrosh comes and does his honor speech because you and the Overlord were disgracing everything it ment to be in the Horde.

It's not a ploy for "LOVE ME I'M HONORABLE", it's a ploy for "You did heinous shit like I almost did, now die."
Get your head out of your Garrosh-hating asses people.

I recommend reading my first post in this thread. I know it's long. Deal with it.

Again, if Garrosh developed with any kind of CONTEXT whatsoever, where we actually see what causes him to establish these vast character changes, and we're given genuine emotion and background for what caused this major characterization since Wrath, I'd probably be inclined to like him.

However, we don't get that. We just have an immediate character 180 starting in Cataclysm. Back in Wrath, there's no indication that Garrosh would care in any way at all. All the development we see in "Heart of War," The Shattering, and Cataclysm occurs AFTER the fact.

It occurs CONVENIENTLY when Blizzard was trying to start shilling him to us as a new leader. That's why I'm not exactly sold on it and think it's Blizzard desperately trying to get us to like him.

And it's a damn shame, because Garrosh becoming an antagonist and having the Horde challenge him in the again to regain their honor WITHOUT Thrall's help would've been an interesting story. But instead they're trying to make him into a clone of characters we already like and would prefer to see more of despite how unrealistic it is.

I've posted in so many of these threads. I actually thought people doing the quests would help to see why Garrosh changed. I never expected anyone to like him that didn't already. It's the "the character has no reason to hate alliance" "the character is poorly written" that I always thought was unfounded. The proof is in the quests and the content.

What proof? "A NOBLE WAR HERO ONCE SAID SOMETHING TO ME..."

Uh, no. Go through all the Horde Wrath content again. Then watch Garrosh interact with Thrall at the Argent Tournament. Then watch the Ulduar trailer again.

At no point whatsoever was there even a shred of of a hint that Garrosh in any way gave a flying fuck about anything Saurfang was saying to him. But suddenly, when we weren't looking, Garrosh undergoes a massive character change conveniently when we're supposed to be buying into him as a new leader. But we never actually see this bold mindset shift.

Proof that Blizzard can dress something up with barely any effort at all and people will buy it because the contemporary definition of "character development" is so loose that anything passes for it as long as you appeal to emotion and have the character do "AWSUM" things.

[Kucedon]

Garrosh is a weak character catering to people who don't wish to read about opinionated and flawed characters. I don't like the character at all. It's presented and handled very sloppily to us.

For a videogame where a large content is about war I am stunned to see a large fanbase not wishing to see characters with ambition. Thrall is overhyped in my opinion and Garrosh or any other Orc general could've been an interesting successor if just they just didn't rush this stuff so early and thought things trough.

[Grimmer]

Everytime you say "war in Warcraft" or "WARcraft," God rapes a puppy.

"War" does not need to be related to Alliance and Horde. It doesn't mean a straightforward war, either. We were in a Cold War even back in Classic WoW.

WC3 made the political landscape of WoW varied and interesting. It gave all the cultures (minus arguably the Forsaken) some ambiguity and created an interesting new continuity that was unlike WC1 and WC2 leading into WoW.

But nope, let's throw all of that out to make another generic nationalistic "MY DICK IS BIGGER" game for the ADHD-ridden Black Ops playing console-tards. That's basically what this new direction is marketing to.

[Metalobism]

[Garrosh's Epic Shoulder Horns He Ripped Off With His Bare Hands]
Requires lvl 90
Equip: Causes Grimmer to rage against you.

Grimmer, you have many options here. Quit playing a game with such a screwed up story line, apply to Blizzard to fix such a story line, take the QQ to the real forums, realize that it's merely a game and in no way has a drastic impact on everyday life, or lastly just play a game because it's fun. No game or even movie will have a seamless storyline.

[GennGreymane]

Even though he does some honorable stuff, he's still mostly portrayed as a bloodthirsty warmongerer. I mean, just listen to what he says when you click him in Org.

He's supposed to be a love-to-hate character. Metzen even said at Blizzcon that Garrosh was created as an anti-Thrall, taking over as Warchief to allow Thrall to develop as an über shaman, whilst bringing back some of the old warmongering horde spirit.

I think horde is more interesting when there's the conflict between bloodthirst and pacificm within it. You gotta admit that the new all-peacful orcs introduced in Warcraft III are pretty boring...

metzan actually just said garrosh will make thralls story better.

the story line of garrosh is the fight between the shamanism and the warrior sprit of the original orcs

---------- Post added 2010-12-30 at 11:17 PM ----------

Everytime you say "war in Warcraft" or "WARcraft," God rapes a puppy.

"War" does not need to be related to Alliance and Horde. It doesn't mean a straightforward war, either. We were in a Cold War even back in Classic WoW.

WC3 made the political landscape of WoW varied and interesting. It gave all the cultures (minus arguably the Forsaken) some ambiguity and created an interesting new continuity that was unlike WC1 and WC2 leading into WoW.

But nope, let's throw all of that out to make another generic nationalistic "MY DICK IS BIGGER" game for the ADHD-ridden Black Ops playing console-tards. That's basically what this new direction is marketing to.

or the tards who want this to be a typical fantesy game

[Grimmer]

or the tards who want this to be a typical fantesy game

Assuming you're being sarcastic.

As typical of a fantasy game as WoW already is, it at least established its own identity and had some level of uniqueness to various races. Garrosh sets that way, way, WAY back and makes it into Warhammer again. You know, like how WC1 was really just a refurbished Warhammer game after Games Workshop denied Blizzard their license to make one. It sets the franchise back all the way to 1994 rather than moving it forward.

I get the point that it's supposed to be shamanism vs. the warrior spirit, but that plot doesn't hold up when you think about it - this group of "young orcs" that long for the days of a bloodthristy Horde seemed to materialize out of nowhere. There's no foreshadowing or lead-in to them. They were invented purely for this storyline, and they'll fade just as fast.

It's just a lot of contrivances to try and cater this game to people who want ANOTHER generic WC1-esque conflict. Most of those people started playing with WoW and don't know the first thing about lore.

Grimmer, you have many options here. Quit playing a game with such a screwed up story line, apply to Blizzard to fix such a story line, take the QQ to the real forums, realize that it's merely a game and in no way has a drastic impact on everyday life, or lastly just play a game because it's fun. No game or even movie will have a seamless storyline.

Remove "Grimmer" and you have a message that can apply to virtually every post on this site in some manner.

Pack it up, everyone! Metalobism's got it figured out. It's just not worth it. All discourse must end.

On the topic of seamless storylines in fiction - no, none of them will. However, Warcraft is more obvious about it, and Garrosh is the worst offender. Without him, it's tolerable.

[GennGreymane]

Assuming you're being sarcastic.

As typical of a fantasy game as WoW already is, it at least established its own identity and had some level of uniqueness to various races. Garrosh sets that way, way, WAY back and makes it into Warhammer again. You know, like how WC1 was really just a refurbished Warhammer game after Games Workshop denied Blizzard their license to make one. It sets the franchise back all the way to 1994 rather than moving it forward.

I get the point that it's supposed to be shamanism vs. the warrior spirit, but that plot doesn't hold up when you think about it - this group of "young orcs" that long for the days of a bloodthristy Horde seemed to materialize out of nowhere. There's no foreshadowing or lead-in to them. They were invented purely for this storyline, and they'll fade just as fast.

It's just a lot of contrivances to try and cater this game to people who want ANOTHER generic WC1-esque conflict. Most of those people started playing with WoW and don't know the first thing about lore.



Remove "Grimmer" and you have a message that can apply to virtually every post on this site in some manner.

Pack it up, everyone! Metalobism's got it figured out. It's just not worth it. All discourse must end.

On the topic of seamless storylines in fiction - no, none of them will. However, Warcraft is more obvious about it, and Garrosh is the worst offender. Without him, it's tolerable.

no a genric warcraft 1 game would be evil orcs v good humans

we knwo for a fact its grey v grey diff reasons poltics, needs of resources its far more complex.

[Grimmer]

no a genric warcraft 1 game would be evil orcs v good humans

we knwo for a fact its grey v grey diff reasons poltics, needs of resources its far more complex.

More like extremely dark shade of grey vs. extremely light shade of grey. I don't want to turn this into an Alliance vs. Horde thread, because it's NOT the entire faction's fault, but Garrosh was already saying that "all of Azeroth should belong to the Horde" before even Wrath. That is a fact. Read the comics, which are canon. You can't tell me there's even remotely anything as dark going on in the Alliance compared to the Forsaken and Orc storylines. And if you try, you're as desperate for straws as you seem.

This "need of resources" bullshit needs to end. Outside of freakin' Westfall, we never see any direct evidence of resources waning on the Horde or the Alliance. We see dozens of heavily fortified bases popping up everywhere. Dragonmaw Port is finished within a few seconds of going through the portal to kill Sauranok the Mystic. Hell, even the supposed "slums" of the trolls looks like a freaking paradise compared to what used to be there.

It's purely an informed flaw, and it's another contrived step in creating a setting we've already had before. Any ambiguity in this is completely inauthentic.

[GennGreymane]

More like extremely dark shade of grey vs. extremely light shade of grey. I don't want to turn this into an Alliance vs. Horde thread, because it's NOT the entire faction's fault, but Garrosh was already saying that "all of Azeroth should belong to the Horde" before even Wrath. That is a fact. Read the comics, which are canon. You can't tell me there's even remotely anything as dark going on in the Alliance compared to the Forsaken and Orc storylines. And if you try, you're as desperate for straws as you seem.

This "need of resources" bullshit needs to end. Outside of freakin' Westfall, we never see any direct evidence of resources waning on the Horde or the Alliance. We see dozens of heavily fortified bases popping up everywhere. Dragonmaw Port is finished within a few seconds of going through the portal to kill Sauranok the Mystic. Hell, even the supposed "slums" of the trolls looks like a freaking paradise compared to what used to be there.

It's purely an informed flaw, and it's another contrived step in creating a setting we've already had before. Any ambiguity in this is completely inauthentic.

do u even know what ur talking about?