Paladin mastery = Arp?

[Kabbalah]

With a before armor calculation, the amount of damage gained can differ from boss to boss though.
So the scaling is linear, but the eventual outcome in the actual damage done can differ alot.

My hopes are for a before armor, but i think blizz will scale it with the actual damage done

Normally NPC armor is based on their level. So in PvE it won't matter. In PvP though Ret mastery (before armor) will help against high armor targets.

[Valith]

no. This part

Ok that is completely irrelevant to this thread sir

[Agroculture]

You don't know that either (referring to linear thing)

Its a safe assumption given the vision the developers have and the removal of ArP in the first place.

[Deleo]

I really doubt they ever add something like ArP to the game ever again. It makes it really hard for them to balance. At least they won't do it intentionally.

About those scenarios I don't think the overall performance is going to change since they will be balancing us around whatever choice they make. If they choose the "after armor" one the holy damage portion is probably bigger than "before armor" scenario.

[belfpala]

Ok that is completely irrelevant to this thread sir

It's entirely relevant because, as I've said, nobody knows what the actual changes will be. Given what was said in the part I quoted, we won't see any changes at all until the t12 PTR.

[Cardolan]

Dude some people have to see it to believe it, they won't just take simple math for an example, I broke it down pretty thoroughly, yet there is still debate.

You didn't "break it down pretty thoroughly", you started going on about how Armor Penetration (a stat that no longer exists) is bad for us because only a portion of our damage is physical, and that strength will still be better.

There's still debate because you're throwing random assumptions based on a purposefully vague post around as if they're fact.

[Oddone]

As I said its not sure if these are the changes they are going to make but we know in what ways they are thinking. I dont think they would give us this list of POTENTIAL changes without any thoughts about it.

[Kabbalah]

It's entirely relevant because, as I've said, nobody knows what the actual changes will be. Given what was said in the part I quoted, we won't see any changes at all until the t12 PTR.

Just because something isn't final doesn't mean we aren't allowed to discuss it.

[Reith]

According to what the blue post said, the mastery scales inversely with the enemy's armor, so no. Say I do a 30k Templar's Verdict (for argument's sake). Let's pretend that the mastery starts at a 15% increase with no additional mastery on gear. That would be 34500 total.

Now let's change that up to a 15k Templar's Verdict. With a 15% addition of holy damage, that would be 17250. It's not going to be like armor penetration at all because it scales with the attack and consequently their armor.

[Naesala]

No It will be best to stick with Strength not Arp, because paladins are still roughly 30% Holy damage and like 50-60% Holy damage with Inquisition up, and their spell damage portion comes from their attack power, and Strength gives attack power which ups both physical and Holy damage for Retribution, Arp will only increase physical damage which would make their Holy dps portion crap, which would make overall damage crap for them, I've tried it at 80 full Arp Retribution and my overall dps went down by about 20-30%, and paladins still use the same mechanics just more spells and RNG. It will likely scale similar to Seal of Truth that scales from both your attack power and spell power when doing a % of weapon damage.

Strengh may be the best stat, however it isn't reforgeable, it is supposed to be at all of our items (there can be some exceptions when it comes to the trinkets) which leaves mastery to compete with crit, haste, hit and expertise. Personally I don't believe the change will affect the stat priority nor our dps that much except giving us more stable numbers than we have now. Further more it haven't really gotten confirmed that the change will occur in next patch so we don't really have much to base things around with our current knowledge about it.

It would be best to wait with discussing things like these till we got more information about the situation.

[zcks]

The main problem I foresee with the mastery being changed is that our survivability (which is already the same or arguably lower then other melee) will go down because we will no longer be able to use hand of light procs for self healing.

The passive damage boost will be nice but it would be much better off if they made it apply to all special attacks then also had the mastery heal us for a set % of the damage boost it provided.

[iktankniet]

it seems you ppl seen more blue posts then i did. I never seen anything about an arp part mastery. The only thing ive seen is a mastery which adds holy dmg. I never read anything about it scaling with the amount of armor

[asmodei]

According to what the blue post said, the mastery scales inversely with the enemy's armor, so no. Say I do a 30k Templar's Verdict (for argument's sake). Let's pretend that the mastery starts at a 15% increase with no additional mastery on gear. That would be 34500 total.

Now let's change that up to a 15k Templar's Verdict. With a 15% addition of holy damage, that would be 17250. It's not going to be like armor penetration at all because it scales with the attack and consequently their armor.

I dont agree with your results because u operate with additon holy dmg and not with portion of holy dmg

I BELIEVE in this:

1. scenario

initial armor - 30% (for sake of argument)
initial TV hit - 30 000 (for sake of argument)
initial holy dmg portion of TV - 15% (for sake of argument)

unmitigated (holy) portion of TV before reduction - 30 000*0,15 = 4 500 holy dmg
mitigated (physical) portion of TV before reduction - 30 000*(1 - 0,15) = 25 500 <=> 30 000 - 4500 = 25 500
mitigated portion (physical) of TV after reduction - 25 500*(1 - 0,3) = 17 850

total TV - unmitigated (holy) portion of TV + mitigated (physical) portion of TV after reduction = 4500 + 17 850 = 22 350

compare result with current status - 30 000*(1-0,3) = 21 000 => 22 350 - 21 000 = 1350 increase of damage

2. scenario

initial armor - 30% (for sake of argument)
initial TV hit - 30 000 (for sake of argument)
initial holy dmg portion of TV - 15% (for sake of argument)

initial mitigated (physical) after reduction TV - 30 000*(1 - 0,3) = 21 000 dmg
holy portion of TV after reduction - 21 000* 0,15 = 3 150
physical portion of TV after reduction - 21 000*(1 - 0,15) = 17 850 <=> 21 000 - 3 150 = 17 850

total TV - unmitigated (holy) portion of TV + mitigated (physical) portion of TV after reduction = 3 150 + 17 850 = 21 000

compare result with current status - 30 000*(1-0,3) = 21 000 => 21 000 - 21 000 = 0 increase of damage

conclusion - 2. scenario have no sense in case of increasing dmg done, so 1. scenario must be true until some another scenario occurs

linearity vs nonlinearity - it depends only on mastery stacking - if linear dmg increase will be linear, if nonlinear dmg increase will be nonlinear

[zcks]

it seems you ppl seen more blue posts then i did. I never seen anything about an arp part mastery. The only thing ive seen is a mastery which adds holy dmg. I never read anything about it scaling with the amount of armor

He means that is is about the same as just having armor penetration because holy damage bypasses armor.

As for his analogy its not completely correct unless they implement it poorly

[Deleted]

The main problem I foresee with the mastery being changed is that our survivability (which is already the same or arguably lower then other melee) will go down because we will no longer be able to use hand of light procs for self healing.

Hand of Light is still there. Divine Purpose is getting changed to provide HoL effect instead of HP. What will the proc chances be, remains to be seen.

[asmodei]

3. scenario and 4. scenario

initial armor - 30% (for sake of argument)
initial TV hit - 30 000 (for sake of argument)
initial holy dmg portion of TV - 15% (for sake of argument)

if will be holy portion of damage calculated BEFORE mitigation and added to physical portion of damage counted after mitigation, then total TV = initial TV*0,15 + initial TV*0,70 = 30 000*0,15 + 30 000*0,70 = 25 500 - in this scenario 100% "armor penetration" effect (30 000 initial TV hit results in 30 000 real TV hit) will be achieved when percentage of mastery will be equall with armor mitigation percentage (30% mastery)

if will be holy portion of damage calculated AFTER mitigation and added to physical portion of damage counted after mitigation, then total TV = ((initial TV*0,70)*0,15) + initial TV*0,70 = ((30 000*0,70)*0,15) + 30 000*0,70 = 24 150 - in this scenario 100% "armor penetration" (30 000 initial TV hit results in 30 000 real TV hit) effect will be achieved when percentage of mastery will be bigger (will be depending by the armor mitigation) than armor mitigation percentage (43% mastery in case 30% armor mitigation)

BUT unlike clasical armor penetration (and 1. and 2. scenario), in this 3. and 4. scenario "mastery penetration" can and will exceed 100% of initial dmg with no effort (especially in 3. scenario) and will result in big increase of dmg done, especially when armor reduction effects are aplied on target (collosus smash)

[Oddone]

loots and loots of good stuff in here.

The reason I thought it would be like Arp was beacuse of the physical dmg being converted to holy dmg. But from the scenarios shown here its not "real" Arp.

This leads to another question. The dmg will still scale from strenght and I am guesing the holy damage will go up. But will the holy damage increase the most from keep stacking strength or would mastery add more holy dmg but not more phys dmg?

--------------------------------EDIT-------------------------------
I just rememberd we dont have numbers yet

[asmodei]

l
This leads to another question. The dmg will still scale from strenght and I am guesing the holy damage will go up. But will the holy damage increase the most from keep stacking strength or would mastery add more holy dmg but not more phys dmg?

I think holy dmg from CS, TV and DS wont increase from str converted in to the spell dmg, but it will increase from str converted in to the physical "autoattack" dmg because TV, CS abd DS are calculated as percentage from autoattack

which stat increase holy dmg more (str or mastery) will be depend from mechanics used in TV, CS and DS - if 1. or 4. scenario I think strength; if 3. scenario, we will end like warriors in wotlk stacking mastery = quasi arpen

[zcks]

Hand of Light is still there. Divine Purpose is getting changed to provide HoL effect instead of HP. What will the proc chances be, remains to be seen.

Actually they said they were changing hand of light so that it would cause attacks like TV, CS & possibly DS to do additional holy damage.

This is great in terms of making our damage more consistent but when combined with the change to divine plea it will mean our survivability/healing potential is taking a huge dump unless they up our holy power generation speed & work in some passive self healing.

[anaxie]

Lots of RNG still though With TV doing additional damage the amount of HoL you proc on your slot machine vs Joe ret will matter more then ever. The design though being improved still sucks. If we could control hand of light it would be better. Such as Art of War is on crits again. Yay cool, Exo hits proc the hand of light effect ok cool wam bam we can now control our output and closer to having a rotation not bing bing lights up.