Feral 4.0.6, mangle vs. shred

[kenshiro]

I am just curious, this is the current PTR changes:

Shred now deals 450% damage plus 1487, up from 350% plus 1156. 40 Energy.
Mangle (Cat) now deals 460% normal damage plus 1452, up from 360% plus 1136. 35 Energy.

Any feral guru here can show me why feral druids want to use shred to generate CPs rather than mangle spamming? Isn't mangle doing relatively more damage than shred and uses lesser energy?

Thanks.

[takolin]

Shred does more damage on targets with a bleed on it. (30% iirc) and shred increases the time on rip for 6 seconds when glpyhed.

[gollie]

http://db.mmo-champion.com/s/51269/rend-and-tear/ is one.

Glyph of Shred is another, those are the ones from the top of my head.

[Deleted]

I am just curious, this is the current PTR changes:

Shred now deals 450% damage plus 1487, up from 350% plus 1156. 40 Energy.
Mangle (Cat) now deals 460% normal damage plus 1452, up from 360% plus 1136. 35 Energy.

Any feral guru here can show me why feral druids want to use shred to generate CPs rather than mangle spamming? Isn't mangle doing relatively more damage than shred and uses lesser energy?

Thanks.

I don't play a Feral Druid myself, but looking at the talents, Shred does 20% extra damage to Bleeding Targets thanks to Rend and Tear, which would probably make it do a good bit more damage than Mangle.

[Deleted]

I don't play a Feral Druid myself, but looking at the talents, Shred does 20% extra damage to Bleeding Targets thanks to Rend and Tear, which would probably make it do a good bit more damage than Mangle.

Well, just at a glance, if you take into account Glyph of Mangle, its only 10% more.

HOWEVER, Shred scales with bleeds, as it clearly states in the spell description whereas Mangle is only a static buff to bleeds. Combined with Rend&Tear+glyph enhancement to Rip, it makes it much better for sustained damage.

Of course, due to the positional requirement, its probably not worth going out of your way to use Shred in pvp.

[kenshiro]

Well, just at a glance, if you take into account Glyph of Mangle, its only 10% more.

HOWEVER, Shred scales with bleeds, as it clearly states in the spell description whereas Mangle is only a static buff to bleeds. Combined with Rend&Tear+glyph enhancement to Rip, it makes it much better for sustained damage.

Of course, due to the positional requirement, its probably not worth going out of your way to use Shred in pvp.

Right, right ... thanks, :-)

[wonshikee]

Mangle and Shred do similar base damage.

Mangle with glyph does 110% damage (which you shouldn't glyph in PvE anyway)

Shred with glyph and talents do 156% damage + 6 more seconds of Rip.

This is why Mangle will never compete with shred in a normal fight

[Whitebull]

Shred now deals 450% damage plus 1487, up from 350% plus 1156. 40 Energy.

Talented, that's 540% damage to a bleeding target, and with mangle up it should be modified like a bleed to be 702% weapon damage plus 1803. That is if mangle is still 30% to bleeds and it's really 1.2 * 1.3 * 4.5. This is ignoring the value of the glyph to increase the number of rip ticks you get. Theoretically if mangle did a good chunk more, there might even have been some break point where you'd glyph both and shred just to get extra rip time... but that's such a precise set of numbers I doubt they'd ever end up that way.

Mangle (Cat) now deals 460% normal damage plus 1452, up from 360% plus 1136. 35 Energy.

Glyph of Mangle adds 10% at the end of that, so I believe it's more like 506% plus 1597 for 35 energy. You also get 1 more mangle every 7 shreds (ignoring the way omen of clarity will affect those numbers), so it's just slightly better than that. Something close to 578% maybe? I'm not standing by these numbers just kinda ballparking it.

Not precise theorycraft here, just trying to be one step more specific. Shreds still way better. It is not a vast and incredible dps loss to have to mangle something in the face a couple times though, should you get put in that position. And I think that's one of their goals.

[gollie]

...Shred with glyph and talents do 156% damage + 6 more seconds of Rip...

How do you get it to 156%? 100%+20%=120% right?

[Cluasen]

The same reasons you have always used shred..
Both got equal boosts so nothing changed

[ChocolateThunderz]

Shred gets increased damage from effects which increase bleed effect damage, AKA mangle 30% more shred damage, and Rend and Tear gives it 20% more damage when doing damage to targets that have a bleed effect on them.

[wonshikee]

How do you get it to 156%? 100%+20%=120% right?

Damage modifiers are multiplicative.

Mangle provides 30%
Rend and Tear provides 20%

that's 1.3 * 1.2 = 1.56 damage modifier.

[Deleted]

How do you get it to 156%? 100%+20%=120% right?

1.3*1.2 = 1.56

[gollie]

Where's the 1.3 coming from? If you're calculating the Mangle debuff I believe you're doing it wrong.

The talent says:"Increases Shred damage on bleeding targets by 20%." That has nothing to do with Mangle at all. Mangle increase bleed damage by 30%. Bleeds increase damage by Shred by 20%. They have nothing to do with each other.

[troten]

Where's the 1.3 coming from? If you're calculating the Mangle debuff I believe you're doing it wrong.

The talent says:"Increases Shred damage on bleeding targets by 20%." That has nothing to do with Mangle at all. Mangle increase bleed damage by 30%. Bleeds increase damage by Shred by 20%. They have nothing to do with each other.

"Shred the target, causing 350% damage plus (330 * 350 / 100) to the target. Must be behind the target. Awards 1 combo point. Effects which increase Bleed damage also increase Shred damage."
Numbers are the way they are on live atm.
Notice the "effects which increase bleed damage also increase shred damage", that means that the +30% dmg to bleeds mangle debuff gives applies to shred. That is the 1.3

[Deleted]

"Effects which increase Bleed damage also increase Shred damage."

Just to clarify mastery dont work on shred so dont try to count it too

[troten]

Just to clarify mastery dont work on shred so dont try to count it too

True

[gollie]

Notice the "effects which increase bleed damage also increase shred damage", that means that the +30% dmg to bleeds mangle debuff gives applies to shred. That is the 1.3

So what you're saying is Mangle and bleeds increase Shred damage. That only means there's 1 additional ability that gives Shred the +20% bonus damage. So either Mangle-debuff on your target OR a bleed on your target will increase your Shred damage. The effects gives the same bonus, 20%. Not 30%+20%.

[Deleted]

So what you're saying is Mangle and bleeds increase Shred damage. That only means there's 1 additional ability that gives Shred the +20% bonus damage. So either Mangle-debuff on your target OR a bleed on your target will increase your Shred damage. The effects gives the same bonus, 20%. Not 30%+20%.

both works those buffs are not exclusive

[AsgardFM]

So what you're saying is Mangle and bleeds increase Shred damage. That only means there's 1 additional ability that gives Shred the +20% bonus damage. So either Mangle-debuff on your target OR a bleed on your target will increase your Shred damage. The effects gives the same bonus, 20%. Not 30%+20%.

Effect one: If you have Mangle on the target, Shred gains 30% damage.
Effect two: If there is any bleed on the target, Shred gains 20% damage.
Combine the two effects to get a 56% bonus on Shred.

Now examine the bonuses to Mangle.
Effect one: Glyph of Mangle gives 10%.

So Shred gains a considerable damage bonus against Mangle. Now add in the Glyph of Shred for a bonus 6 seconds on Rip and it brings out a clear winner.