Frost 2H PVP: Haste in favor of Mastery?

[fyske]

Hello everyone,

I've been thinking about it for a while now and I'm still wondering and seeking opinions. (It's been over a week!)

In the next patch, Frost 2H will receive a fairly good melee damage boost through Might of the Frozen Waste which will provide an extra 12% melee damage, and since then I've been thinking: would it be better then next patch to go Haste over Mastery? Both stats provide good solutions but one probably top the other. Let's see what Haste and Mastery provide.

Haste
- Faster Rune regeneration.
- - - - More Chains of Ice to peel.
- - - - More Obliterates and/or Necrotic Strikes, more damage.
- - - - More Death Strikes, better survivability.
- Faster melee swings.
- - - - More Runic Power generated.
- - - - More damage over time from melee swings.
- - - - Potential of more burst through Killing Machine (Faster melee swings = Killing Machine up faster, but it's a PPM, so you won't get more procs.)
- Lower Frost damage
- - - - Potential to drop Rime to 1/3 from the spec and get Merciless Combat/On A Pale Horse?

Mastery
- Frost Damage increased
- - - - More damage through Frost Strike, best damage from Rime
- - - - Killing Machine can be used on Frost Strike, which hit harder than when you use Haste.

What are your thoughts over this?

Thanks in advance.

[Deleted]

2Handed frost has always favored haste over Mastery

- - - - Potential to drop Rime to 1/3 from the spec and get Merciless Combat/On A Pale Horse?

Don't drop rime, and screw chains and take chillblains.

[fyske]

In regards to Chains of Ice: In the next patch, it root the target for 3 seconds, so it's very good to be able to use it more often if you need to prevent people from moving.

Rime feel really weak, at least on PTR, sometimes I do 5+ Obliterate and get at best 1 Rime proc (with 3/3, I use the Rime proc before doing more Obliterates). The utility of On A Pale Horse (-30% snare duration) feel more useful than 4500 extra damage you aren't even sure it will proc at the right time.

[Ripkit]

Rime procs are not only for the damage, though. I use rime procs almost exclusively as my way of refreshing frost fever/slows on the target. Also it's free damage. I find that it procs almost every obliterate though, perhaps your buttons are broken? :P

Edit: On topic though, yeah haste is and will probably still be better next patch for 2h frost. You just gain so much from haste, and not very much from mastery. However, I don't think that the chains root will be particularly helpful... I think it was an attempt for them to give DKs another gap closer, but when you're slowed, 3 seconds of immobility on your target that's 30-40+ yards away isn't going to do much. On the flip side, it'll make chains a usable peel to save the kill target from angry melee.

[fyske]

I could even record a video of me using Obliterate and Rime not proccing for like 5+ hits. No, my hotkey isn't broken.

Honestly I don't see myself dropping On A Pale Horse to get Rime 3/3. The best I'd do is drop Merciless Combat to get Rime maxed, since you raise a valid point to refresh Frost Fever.

[Avatar Killer]

Disregard this post as i missed read the OP

[fyske]

not sure how rime conflicts with OaPH exactly since they are not in the same tree and also since OaPH provides exactly 0 extra dps where as rime actually contributes to DPS but hey...

In regards to Rime: I just meant that Rime is good, but in PVP sometimes getting a lower duration on snares is much more useful.

Also, I'm not sure if I understand what you mean...

Haste with 2h is better than Mastery

Stick with Mastery above haste.

??

[Avatar Killer]

In regards to Rime: I just meant that Rime is good, but in PVP sometimes getting a lower duration on snares is much more useful.

As far as getting OaPH i would always grab this as frost anyways personally is what i meant

Also, I'm not sure if I understand what you mean...

i didn't see the PVP tag because haste IS better in PVE than mastery for 2h but as far as pvp goes no

[fyske]

As far as getting OaPH i would always grab this as frost anyways personally is what i meant

Yeah, I'm trying to figure out whatever to drop Rime to 1/3, Merciless Combat completely or drop On A Pale Horse in the next patch. Really hard to make a choice, right now I'm running with all these talents and 1/3 Might of the Frozen Waste, considering the talent is a waste to me.

[Avatar Killer]

it won't be a waste in the patch and doing more damage to a wounded player isn't terrible either, especially since they are increasing the damage of melee abilities another 12%

[fyske]

Oh no, Might of the Frozen Waste IS necessary in the next patch.

But the choice is more likely to be: drop On A Pale Horse, Merciless Combat or Rime reduced to 1/3. All theses talents are good, I probably won't drop OAPH, but Rime Vs. Merciless Combat doesn't make the choice easy.

[Avatar Killer]

lol rime procs on Ob. Merciless combat "procs" on the target having low health. i would go with the lower rime personally.

[Facerockker]

In my 2hander build I didn't even bother to get Rime. I never really saw that much of a difference and if I really needed to get off a Howling Blast I would always just Tap, which is what I tend to do anyway. Also, OaPH is just amazing in PvP. The ability to catch up to most of your opponents is just invaluable.

As far as the OP's question goes, I would have to definitely say Haste. Haste has been 2hander Frost's big stat for a while now.

[Avatar Killer]

but for pvp haste isn't as useful as mastery in the fact that mastery provides:

1) you hit harder with FS and since it negates armor you ignore the 40-45% melee damage reduction from armor bonuses from players (since pve bosses have a smaller damage reduction from armor and or buffs)

2) if the target isn't in melee range 100% of the time like a boss is you get the bigger benefit from HB doing more damage as opposed to faster melee swings since if you miss the timer for 1 swing the haste benefit in pvp is pretty much negated by resetting the timer anyways.

3) the slight damage increase from diseases doesn't hurt either.

Haste only increases melee swing speed (which you don't get nearly as many as you hope to in PVP) and rune regen (in pvp gear haste is minimal at best as it is providing a much smaller % than in pve gear)

[Deleted]

At the moment Haste is already better than Mastery for Frost 2H in PvE, I can't imagine it's much different in PvP.

[Avatar Killer]

apparently you didn't read the post right above yours.

[Roose]

but for pvp haste isn't as useful as mastery in the fact that mastery provides:

1) you hit harder with FS and since it negates armor you ignore the 40-45% melee damage reduction from armor bonuses from players (since pve bosses have a smaller damage reduction from armor and or buffs)

2) if the target isn't in melee range 100% of the time like a boss is you get the bigger benefit from HB doing more damage as opposed to faster melee swings since if you miss the timer for 1 swing the haste benefit in pvp is pretty much negated by resetting the timer anyways.

3) the slight damage increase from diseases doesn't hurt either.

Haste only increases melee swing speed (which you don't get nearly as many as you hope to in PVP) and rune regen (in pvp gear haste is minimal at best as it is providing a much smaller % than in pve gear)

Im with you here. Haste is best for raiding, but you really do not reap all of the same benefits in PvP due to so many other variables. I do not need MotFW procs for RP in PvP because of 4 pc bonus and 1 point in scent of blood. That is a ton of RP that you do not have in PvE.

I also put just 1 point in Rime because it is nice when it procs, but I do not rely on them. Also, you do not use nearly as many OBs in PvP because of NS.

I do not see any reason to ever not pick up OaPH for PvP or Merciless combat for that matter.

[Avatar Killer]

I do not see any reason to ever not pick up OaPH for PvP or Merciless combat for that matter.

the only part i didn't comment on is said here.
OaPH is a clear and necessary PVP talent due to the movement issue. And merciless combat helps to finish off that target that is about to get of a heal and lengthen the fight.

[Gerian]

The snare reduction has never been nearly as powerful as you are making it out to be. Classes with spammable snares are still going to give you hell.

[Avatar Killer]

lol reducing snare time by 30% is not laughable it is clearly worth getting. and as it is DKs have no other way to remove them other than a trinket which as you said would just be reapplied. it is still worth every point regardless.