Need / Greed is not enough

[Cayumi]

I think Blizzard need to revamp how geared is rolled for in dungeons.
Need and Greed (and ofc Pass and Disenchant) is not enough.

In my opinion it should be MS (Need), OS, Greed.
And the variables enabling you to roll MS or OS should be tightened.

Examples:
A Fury Warrior should not be able to MS (currently Need) on an agility cloak.
An Enhancement Shaman should not be able to MS (currently Need) on a str ring.
A Retribution Paladin should not be able to MS (currently Need) on an agility trinket.

Currently ingame a Resto Shaman, a Protection Warrior and a Retribution Paladin can all roll Need on a trinket with 200 Agility and melee/ranged equip effect.
In my opinion only a Feral Druid, Enhancement Shaman, Rogue or Hunter should be able to Need on that (MS roll in my revamped example).
The Resto Shaman spoken of above should be able to OS roll on it.
The Ret. Paladin and Prot. Warrior of above should only be able to Greed it, not Need nor OS since they are Plate STR users and never, ever, agi.

Just my two cents after a BRC last night on my hunter where I lost the Agility ring, Agility trinket, Agi Staff BoE and then agi dagger.. all to the resto shaman.
Then I got kicked from the group when I told them i didn't think it was ok (group was Me (hunter), Prot Warrior, Resto Shaman, Retadin, Frost dw dk).


Obviously I'm not objective in the matter above but it's my honest opinion.
Blizzard should force MS > OS (with tighter variables) in dungeons since common sense ain't enough.

[erebusman]

I'll agree an Offspec roll is needed that takes priority above Greed/Disenchant.

However I think 50% of your concern is blizzard has not refined the system enough to distinguish on some items that STR based class has 'no need' for a agility item (and vice versa of course). This is not a fault of the buttons you can press but of the underlying classification of the loot system to begin with.

[breydel]

Just my two cents after a BRC last night on my hunter where I lost the Agility ring, Agility trinket, Agi Staff BoE and then agi dagger.. all to the resto shaman.

ontopid: I do agree we need a offspec "roll". But more to make sure you don't have to wait for everyone to roll when you need it for offspec.
Offtopic: But lol at this... a shaman, (dont even care that he is resto) who rolls for an agi staff and an agi dagger... Are you sure that happend? I mean... cmmon... for real? Someone like that as your healer; how many whipes did you guys have?

[Nekovivie]

If you add an offspec roll, the number of people rolling offspec and sharding/vendoring it anyway would skyrocket.

[breydel]

If you add an offspec roll, the number of people rolling offspec and sharding/vendoring it anyway would skyrocket.

Didn't even think about that... yes... I guess we're still humans after all.

haha ^_^

[blizzy]

How would a new tank be supposed to gear up? The two specs of your character don't have clear designation of being "this is my main spec", "this is my off spec." If that were the case, your proposal could work.

[Cayumi]

who rolls for an agi staff and an agi dagger... Are you sure that happend? I mean... cmmon... for real? Someone like that as your healer; how many whipes did you guys have?

Aye, it was when he won the dagger that the crying started (I told him a 1,80 weapon is nothing to go for as Enhancement).
He told me he's the shaman and he knows the class better then me since I'm a hunter.
Then when he took the staff I continued to lecture him and that's where I was kicked.

---------- Post added 2011-01-28 at 03:14 PM ----------

If you add an offspec roll, the number of people rolling offspec and sharding/vendoring it anyway would skyrocket.

That wouldn't really be a problem.
What I'm going for here is to give MS an advantage over OS, and mainly an advantage over classes who has no use what so ever of the item.

---------- Post added 2011-01-28 at 03:16 PM ----------

Once that is implemented people will find ways to demand that even more options are implemented. Then they will complain that looting takes so long because everyone has to consider too many confusing options

/sigh

There's always that risk. But there isn't any more viable options that I can think of.
So I dont believe we would end up with confused people and go back to step 1.

[Umadcauseubad]

I think Blizzard need to revamp how geared is rolled for in dungeons.
Need and Greed (and ofc Pass and Disenchant) is not enough.

In my opinion it should be MS (Need), OS, Greed.
And the variables enabling you to roll MS or OS should be tightened.

Examples:
A Fury Warrior should not be able to MS (currently Need) on an agility cloak.
An Enhancement Shaman should not be able to MS (currently Need) on a str ring.
A Retribution Paladin should not be able to MS (currently Need) on an agility trinket.

Currently ingame a Resto Shaman, a Protection Warrior and a Retribution Paladin can all roll Need on a trinket with 200 Agility and melee/ranged equip effect.
In my opinion only a Feral Druid, Enhancement Shaman, Rogue or Hunter should be able to Need on that (MS roll in my revamped example).
The Resto Shaman spoken of above should be able to OS roll on it.
The Ret. Paladin and Prot. Warrior of above should only be able to Greed it, not Need nor OS since they are Plate STR users and never, ever, agi.

Just my two cents after a BRC last night on my hunter where I lost the Agility ring, Agility trinket, Agi Staff BoE and then agi dagger.. all to the resto shaman.
Then I got kicked from the group when I told them i didn't think it was ok (group was Me (hunter), Prot Warrior, Resto Shaman, Retadin, Frost dw dk).


Obviously I'm not objective in the matter above but it's my honest opinion.
Blizzard should force MS > OS (with tighter variables) in dungeons since common sense ain't enough.

I just had the spirit trinket from ToT and a Tank trinket from GB taken by a priest and a hunter.... respectively, you live,you learn, you group with guildies

[Mandible]

The problem isn´t the system - its the people playing the game.

Some do the right thing and only need on their class role and other need on whatever item they can get their hands on - and ofc those in between. Adding options wouldn´t change the fact that some would still need on what they can get away with.

The only solution would be for blizzard to add class restrictions to each item so only some could roll, and even then it wouldn´t fix it 100%.

[breydel]

But still... leaving out the fact there a some people who like being selffish...
The people who aren't and want to roll "greed" on a offspec item, can't. 'cause it will be DE'ed. So they have to wait. Ask the group if its oke, and because most people don't feel the need to chat in /p, need to wait everyone choise of roll... AND THEN you can savely press need (if nobody els needed ofc)

If this system was implemented, the decent people would be rewarded and the douchebags would.. would still be douchebags... ah well, what can you do?

Not saying its prio... I mean... i'd pref a tabard tab, but it would be nice if they could do it.

[Deleted]

how do you define those geartypes? Is you idea, that I cannot roll on a mastery/hit plate item as Tank, because there are avoid-plate items, even I want to get more block with my paladin and am happy about that hitboost? Not all Gear is 100% predefined for a role but will lead to discussions.

if people decide, those DDs rolling for heal/tank gear will still roll, even if its secondneed.

[Cayumi]

I just had the spirit trinket from ToT and a Tank trinket from GB taken by a priest and a hunter.... respectively, you live,you learn, you group with guildies

Indeed, and I agree. But that ain't very constructive.
I'm looking for a solution for the *random* dungeons using the need / greed like it's ww2.

[Deleted]

Are you sure this is not a QQ post about you loosing loot to someone else? - Maybe the Shaman's MS is Enhancement - but in order to shorter wait time (both his and yours) he went as resto - I see no reason why he should not be able to loot on those items.

it was your choice to run a random pug - if you had run it with friends/guildies it would not have happened

[ebichuman]

Are you sure this is not a QQ post about you loosing loot to someone else? - Maybe the Shaman's MS is Enhancement - but in order to shorter wait time (both his and yours) he went as resto - I see no reason why he should not be able to loot on those items.

it was your choice to run a random pug - if you had run it with friends/guildies it would not have happened

A persons ms is what they came to the instance/raid as. Otherwise everyone would need on everything regardless of spec.

[breydel]

Maybe the Shaman's MS is Enhancement - but in order to shorter wait time (both his and yours) he went as resto - I see no reason why he should not be able to loot on those items.

I don't even care about the situation this event occurred. Enha shaman should never roll on an agi staff... offspec, mainspec, or as a sexyal toy... (maybe rollplaying... but at least ask then)

The trinket and ring... Maybe... If you're a decent person you'd announce it at the start of the instance that you will need for those items.... But I won't be the judge of that.

[Vashta]

The current system is fine.

MS/OS is not an offical part of the game.

[Karnus]

Even if his main was enh, he took bad weapons. Shaman don't use staves and don't need fast one handers.

The unfortunate reality of the game is that the majority of the time there's some asshole in the group that wants to take loot they don't need or deserve, they will win it. The other day I was in Heroic LCotT, on General Husam. The group I was with was fail-tastic and didn't understand how to avoid the landmines or the shockwave. A DK (my competition for loot) spent all three attempts face down in the dirt from the beginning of the fight. When we finally killed him, I knew the plate boots I needed would finally drop and I would lose them to the DK. Sure enough, they drop and I roll a 4. DK wins.

WoW is unfortunately just full of situations like this, because an unhealthy portion of the playerbase are moronic dickbags. Blizzard improving the Need before Greed system will certainly help, but the main problem is the lack of accountability people have due to the cross server system. They essentially have anonymity, and we all know what that causes on the interwebz.

[Lucetia]

Examples:
A Fury Warrior should not be able to MS (currently Need) on an agility cloak.
An Enhancement Shaman should not be able to MS (currently Need) on a str ring.
A Retribution Paladin should not be able to MS (currently Need) on an agility trinket.

You do know why it is like that? Back in Wrath of the Lich King people were able to roll on the Agility stuff as it had armor penetration on it. Strength also gave shaman's attack power. The reason they get to where it now is because Agility still gives crit to plate wearers and shaman's are still able to get some attack power from strength. Are these both perfectly good items for said classes? No, but that is what makes bad players bad.

The only way your example could work is if they made Agility no longer give critical strike rating and Shaman's to no longer gain any benefit from Strength. Even then the haste/crit/hit/mastery on a strength item would make it *somewhat* viable for an Enhancement. The drawback of not making crit be gained from Agi is you now either have to itemize the piece of gear with more crit to compensate (thus causing some dps balance issues for said classes) or (the more likely choice) build it into the talent specialization for X agi = X crit.

The current system is fine.

MS/OS is not an offical part of the game.

This part right here. If you start specifying MS over OS then who is it to decide what that person's main spec is? Just because someone queues as X spec does not mean it is their Main Spec nor is it to be determined that. Sure someone could say their main spec is differently every time something drops, but that's just how some people are. Some people like to queue as something else. My main spec is Protection but I run as Ret. Does this then mean I would get to roll on prot because it's my main? Or is it Ret because you want your tanking piece? Mind you I always pass on tanking loot in dungeons.

[Hypernetic]

Nope.

I do wish they would define who can roll on what items a little better though. The biggest problem I see is with ranged weapons and trinkets. There is a distinct lack of ranged weapons for warriors, which has them rolling on hunter weapons.

Ranged weapons are pretty much everything to a hunter whereas they are simply a stat stick (and a crappy one at that with the current itemization in heroics) for warriors. They should honestly just give warriors a relic slot instead all of the other plate DPS use them anyway.

Trinkets seem to have a pretty blurry line when it comes to who can need on them. I can need on trinkets that have STR procs because they have expertise on them and crap like that (I'm a resto shaman). Blizzard just needs to define items better.

[Kaysha]

There are basically 3 roles ingame: Tank, Healer and DPS. Each of those 3 roles has specific stats / skills which benefit them a lot, while it is of little use to the rest. Think for instance about Dodge rating, Strength, Hit or Spirit (yes, I realise that some casters have a talent that converts Spirit into Hit rating).

Each talent tree is also about either of these 3 roles. Some classes only have DPS specs (Mages), while others have more variety, like Druids who can act as all 3 roles.

It's actually fairly simple. Whenever a loot roll is made, the game check the various talent trees in effect at the time the roll is made. Based on the stats of the item, it becomes a need item for the people who can use it in accordence to their talent tree and armor specialisation (i.e. a mail item with Intellect and Spirit on it would be greed for the Holy Paladin, but Need for the Resto Shaman). One restriction applies: the item being rolled for should be of better quality than anything for that specific role that the character already has (this is in the same way that the game already determines average iLevel for dungeon entry), otherwise it will be a greed item for that person instead.

Otherwise, it's a greed item.

If people are decent enough, they will step out of the roll at all, if they realise that someone else can use it better, there's no difference with how that works already. What it does remedy, however, is the people griefing others by rolling need on everything, even if it's an item they can't use, or already have better - something that plagued numerous LFD groups by the end of WotLK.